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Old 09-18-2010, 03:13 PM   #1
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author sort - Walter M. Miller, Jr.

the "Jr." confuses author sort generation - it thinks Jr is the surname.

what's the recommended fix / format for authors with extra bits in their name , like this one ?
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Old 09-18-2010, 03:22 PM   #2
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Are you asking how to fix, or what value to use?

The how-to is to use the manage authors dialog and enter the 'right' sort value into the author's sort box.

The right value depends on your use. You, having a kindle and knowing how the kindle munges names, might want to use 'Miller Jr, Walter M' so that the kindle will generate a string that makes sense. Librarians I know tell me to use 'Miller, Walter M (Jr)' so that Miller Sr and Miller Jr will sort together. Using the 'kindle' approach, 'Miller, Michael' will arrive between Miller Jr and Miller Sr.

In the end -- up to you.
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Old 09-18-2010, 06:01 PM   #3
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I am running the latest version on Vista and just noticed that the author sorting on the main panel is not working properly.

I have stored the Authors like "Firstname Lastname", but specified sorting according to "Lastname, Firstname" for each book. I could swear that that was working OK until I upgraded to the latest version (0.7.19). At any rate, it is broken in this version, as in the main panel Author is sorted as a string (=sorts on first name, the author string is stored like that).

However, in the left panel (tags) the Authors tag is working properly (i.e. even if it display Firstname Lastname, it sort on Lastname).

This is all confusing and not easy to deal with. I'd like to suggest that separate strings are introduced (author_first_name, author_last_name, author_middlename(s)) and the author fields become configurable. Please consider it, it would be a big improvement.

Having the author list as "Lastname, Firstname" in both the main panel and the Tags panel would be a definite improvement.

Currently, under settings, we have
"(?P<title>.+) - (?P<author>[^_]+)"
as a regular expression for the metadata extracted from file names. This regex is not working for me, in fact if I type in "title - first last" as a string, and press test, nothing happens, the fields below are not populated at all. Therefore I could not test alternatives.

Thus it is difficult to deal with files stored as
"Lastname, Firstname - Title", which is the most common format used (as it sorts in any file browser well).

On a further note: sorting works on English characters only and can not deal with accented characters. Thus is sorts "á" after "z", which is very unusual and confusing. I suggest to use sort algorithms that either ignore accents or sort the accented character according to ISO standard (aäáà...b...oöő..). Please consider this improvement for the sake of us who read in foreign languages.

A further suggestion: please consider to introduce a new tag: language. I know that one can define own tags "English, French, etc.", but that is not quite the same thing. The language of a books is an important entry in a library catalog.

Thank you,

Mixx

PS: I just noticed the other thread and that there is a new version of Calibre (that fixes the first issue above). Amazing reaction time, thanks! My other comments remain valid.

Last edited by Mixx; 09-18-2010 at 06:16 PM.
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Old 09-18-2010, 06:24 PM   #4
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The first attempt at the 0.7.19 release had a broken author aort - but that was corrected in a few hours. However it might be worth downloading again and re-installing in case you mangaged to download the update the new release in the short period the broken release was online.
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Old 09-18-2010, 06:25 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mixx View Post
I am running the latest version on Vista and just noticed that the author sorting on the main panel is not working properly.
This has already been fixed. Please see http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99035
Quote:
This is all confusing and not easy to deal with. I'd like to suggest that separate strings are introduced (author_first_name, author_last_name, author_middlename(s)) and the author fields become configurable. Please consider it, it would be a big improvement.
My guess is that this won't happen. At least, it is certain that I won't do it.
Quote:
Having the author list as "Lastname, Firstname" in both the main panel and the Tags panel would be a definite improvement.
You can already do this. I know, because I do and have done for months.

You need to change a 'tweak' to change how author sort is calculated from author. Go to preferences -> advanced -> tweaks and look at the
Code:
# The algorithm used to copy author to author_sort
# Possible values are:
#  invert: use "fn ln" -> "ln, fn" (the original algorithm)
#  copy  : copy author to author_sort without modification
#  comma : use 'copy' if there is a ',' in the name, otherwise use 'invert'
#  nocomma : "fn ln" -> "ln fn" (without the comma)
author_sort_copy_method = 'invert'
You would want either copy or comma.

You then must enter/change your author names in LN, FN order. Only you can do that. Once that is done, use the 'manage authors' dialog to verify that the sort strings are as you wish.
Quote:
Currently, under settings, we have
"(?P<title>.+) - (?P<author>[^_]+)"
as a regular expression for the metadata extracted from file names. This regex is not working for me, in fact if I type in "title - first last" as a string, and press test, nothing happens, the fields below are not populated at all. Therefore I could not test alternatives.
Confused.

Why don't you change the regular expression to be what you want?

Ahhh ... perhaps it is the extension issue? The file name in the test string must have an extension, just as a real file name would have. For example, enter 'title - first last.epub'.
Quote:
Thus it is difficult to deal with files stored as
"Lastname, Firstname - Title", which is the most common format used (as it sorts in any file browser well).
Actually, Firstname Lastname is the most common. Those of us who want Lastname, Firstname are definitely in the minority. Strange, I know...
Quote:
On a further note: sorting works on English characters only and can not deal with accented characters. Thus is sorts "á" after "z", which is very unusual and confusing. I suggest to use sort algorithms that either ignore accents or sort the accented character according to ISO standard (aäáà...b...oöő..). Please consider this improvement for the sake of us who read in foreign languages.
It is wrong, but it isn't unusual. Sorting correctly across all character sets across the world is hard. I have looked for a solution. There are very few available, and most of them don't work in more than a few countries.
Quote:
A further suggestion: please consider to introduce a new tag: language. I know that one can define own tags "English, French, etc.", but that is not quite the same thing. The language of a books is an important entry in a library catalog.
Confused....

You can put any tag you want on a book. You can also create a custom column for language, which you can fill in however you want.

Are you asking for something else?
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Old 09-18-2010, 06:29 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mixx View Post
the author sorting on the main panel is not working properly.
As you've noticed, it was fixed within a few hours of the error being released.

Quote:
I'd like to suggest that separate strings are introduced (author_first_name, author_last_name, author_middlename(s)) and the author fields become configurable. Please consider it, it would be a big improvement.
It won't be done, at least not any time soon. It would require a nearly complete rewrite.

Quote:
Having the author list as "Lastname, Firstname" in both the main panel and the Tags panel would be a definite improvement.
This can be done and many people run this way. Look at the tweaks in Preferences and search for that word here to see how.

Quote:
Currently, under settings, we have
"(?P<title>.+) - (?P<author>[^_]+)"
as a regular expression for the metadata extracted from file names. This regex is not working for me, in fact if I type in "title - first last" as a string, and press test, nothing happens, the fields below are not populated at all. Therefore I could not test alternatives.
Try "title - first last.pdf".

Quote:
A further suggestion: please consider to introduce a new tag: language. I know that one can define own tags "English, French, etc.", but that is not quite the same thing. The language of a books is an important entry in a library catalog.
Control over the language tag in exported EPUBs is on the todo list. Other than that, I'm not sure why you object to defining your own field for this.
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Old 09-27-2010, 04:40 PM   #7
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I am terribly sorry for neglecting this thread that I started, I was away for a few days.

Thanks for your explanations, it did help quite a bit.

I still think though, that the sort order is not useful the way it is. How about just getting rid of all accents and sort then. You must have the function to that as I notice that the folder tree of the Calibre catalog does exactly that (no accents).

Thanks a million,

Mixx
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Old 09-27-2010, 05:10 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mixx View Post
I still think though, that the sort order is not useful the way it is. How about just getting rid of all accents and sort then. You must have the function to that as I notice that the folder tree of the Calibre catalog does exactly that (no accents).
I'm interested in what others say about this. You want a map that maps accented (and other) characters to non-accented characters in a way that improves sort order. Is it obvious how to do that for all characters in all languages?
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Old 09-27-2010, 05:21 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Starson17 View Post
I'm interested in what others say about this. You want a map that maps accented (and other) characters to non-accented characters in a way that improves sort order. Is it obvious how to do that for all characters in all languages?
I think this requirement is best left to the user customising the Author name Sort order.
As you clearly observed.
For all Languages .. Who would be the Calibre sort police
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Old 09-27-2010, 11:54 PM   #10
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For all Languages .. Who would be the Calibre sort police
I nominate myself. I promise to save tax payer money by not putting any effort into my job.

Vote for me this November.
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Old 09-27-2010, 11:58 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by CleverClothe View Post
I nominate myself. I promise to save tax payer money by not putting any effort into my job.

Vote for me this November.
Good Point. I'm betting there are some stimulus dollars out there just waiting to fund this position. Lets start the grant paperwork rolling and see what happens.

Darn you CleverClothe, dragging me off the cliff with you.

I can hear my Mom now, if CleverClothe jumped off the cliff would you jump off too?
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Old 09-28-2010, 01:00 AM   #12
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Could I kind soul please provide some instruction on how to display author listing main screen left side in the form: LastName, FirstName, Book Count - presently list is sorted correctly according to Lastname but shown as bookcount, FN, LN,

with over 200 authors, this would greatly help my workflow.....
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Old 09-28-2010, 01:11 AM   #13
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Could I kind soul please provide some instruction on how to display author listing main screen left side in the form: LastName, FirstName, Book Count - presently list is sorted correctly according to Lastname but shown as bookcount, FN, LN,

with over 200 authors, this would greatly help my workflow.....
Welcome to MobileRead, mob. Someone should step in soon with suggestions.....in the meantime be sure to click on the "introduce yourself" link below so we can welcome you properly.....
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Old 09-28-2010, 01:17 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by mob View Post
Could I kind soul please provide some instruction on how to display author listing main screen left side in the form: LastName, FirstName, Book Count - presently list is sorted correctly according to Lastname but shown as bookcount, FN, LN,

with over 200 authors, this would greatly help my workflow.....
If I understand correctly you are wondering how to change the look of the Authors in the Tag browser. If I am correct in this assessment the only way to do it is to change the author field to last name, first name and leave the author_sort field as last name, first name.

You can do this by setting this tweak to "copy."

# The algorithm used to copy author to author_sort # Possible values are:
# invert: use "fn ln" -> "ln, fn" (the original algorithm)
# copy : copy author to author_sort without modification
# comma : use 'copy' if there is a ',' in the name, otherwise use 'invert'
# nocomma : "fn ln" -> "ln fn" (without the comma)
author_sort_copy_method = 'invert'

Then right clicking the any author in the tag browser, selecting manage authors and editing the 200 entries in the author side to match the author_sort side or using the new features in the next release and copying the author_sort field to the author field (I'll let someone else explain this).

Of course this changes your author field in the library to last, first too. All future entries should be entered last, first and they will be copied to the author_sort field as entered in the author field.

Personally i like the first, last look and really don't think changing it would help my workflow in the least, but now you know how to do it.

Last edited by DoctorOhh; 09-28-2010 at 01:22 AM.
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Old 10-03-2010, 08:55 AM   #15
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I think this requirement is best left to the user customising the Author name Sort order.
As you clearly observed.
For all Languages .. Who would be the Calibre sort police
Come on now, theducks. Are you sure you understand what I asked for?

I maintain that sorting like abc...xyzáá.. is not meaningful. Most nations of the planet accepted the inadequacies of the US ASCII character set in the old days and started to write accented characters without accents (á --> a, ö -- o) for simplicity. This is not pretty and sometimes confusing. Now that one actually has Unicode, most languages are fine and can use accented characters again.

If that can not be implemented for some reason (eg. too much work) then I asked for a very simple modification in the code that does the sorting of strings: take away the accents, before sort. This is not perfect, but much more meaningful that having 'á' sorting after 'z'.

The code to rip off the accents must exist in Calibre, as the catalog is maintained like that: the folders (named according to authors) and the file names are w/o accents on the disk.

If the subfolders were in the format "Lastname, Firstname", one could simply sort them by one click in any file manager. One can, however, click inside of a subfolder (where all the books of the same author are placed) and get a sorting according to title (as the filename is in the format "title - firstname lastname" (here the order of the name components does not disturb, as they are at the end of the string).

I was asking for the same sorting in Calibre itself (it is always helpful to get the same (!) sorting in the app as in the file system, for any cleanup work.

I fail to see how this has anything to do with "sort police", which is a very strong term.

Given that I do not know much about programming and such, I can not figure out how one could set his own sort order by "customizing author sort" to deal with accented characters, as you suggest, sorry.

I do not want to "demand" here anything, I appreciate the work the developers are doing. On the contrary, I wanted to contribute by pointing out that there are problems if you read in more than one language (=English).

My personal opinion is that Calibre (a great effort, no question) is unnecessarily complex/difficult to use in terms of author names (firstname, lastname, multiple authors, sorting) and handling of non-english (but still latin-based) characters.

I do not think that the "sort police" term is appropriate in this context and I do think that my suggestion is meaningful. If it is OK, I'll be trying to contribute by make more suggestions like these.

Regards, Mixx
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