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Old 10-18-2010, 06:35 PM   #31
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What is that fundamental shift and what caused it? (I'm not trying to be a "sagacious donkey;" I'm really curious).
I think it's mostly that the U.S. is moving away from manufacturing and more into computer-based jobs. It is cheaper to get the manufacturing done overseas due to the unions and expectations of American workers.
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Old 10-18-2010, 07:21 PM   #32
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What is that fundamental shift and what caused it?
Well, lots of factors (and I'm going off My Humble Opinion here, not studies that I can point to.) One is the ability to move massive amounts of goods halfway around the world so that it is actually cheaper for the consumer and more profitable for the manufacturer to have products made ten thousand miles away. Container ships are gigantic-- here's mention of one that can carry "8,100 20-foot-long shipping containers". Also the ability to move massive amounts of data from just about anywhere in the world to just about anywhere else in the world-- jobs that can be done from telephones or computers can be sent out to anywhere else in the world. Either one of those could be stopped in the short term by building a legislative wall around the US-- but would be just burying our heads in the sand.

Another issue is consolidation of businesses-- the "Wal-Marting" factor. Large scale farming, or large chain stores (or large chains of large stores) can produce/sell products more efficiently/cheaply than lots of individual farms and lots of "mom and pop" stores-- but with far fewer employees (and owners.)

And, of course, there is the "digital revolution." Note how Tower Records stores aren't in every big town these days? And how Blockbuster Videos aren't? And how many bookstores are closing down? Thank downloaded digital versions and Amazon and Netflix and similar-- which don't produce nearly the amount of jobs they replace in serving the same volume of customers.

Another factor that comes to mind-- the cheapening of products-- I remember the days of TV repairmen and VCR repairmen (though I missed the days of radio repairmen) but now electronic products are cheap enough to produce (and difficult enough to work with) that people throw them away and buy another one rather than have them repaired.

I could sit and come up with more factors, but its enough to say that there are many classes of jobs that are simply going to go away from the US and never come back again no matter who is in office because of factors that have absolutely nothing to do with who is in the White House.

Luckily, the wheels of the American economy are still oiled by Useless Crap. If we (and the rest of the world) stopped buying Useless Crap, the world economy would collapse utterly. (Think about it-- if everyone bought only the things they needed and not the things they merely wanted-- including too much food, too much clothes, too big houses, too often a new car, replacing electronic items only after they break, not just for something faster or flashier-- how many of the jobs in the world would disappear then? 50 percent of them? 75 percent? Crap is what makes the world go round.)
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Old 10-18-2010, 07:42 PM   #33
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Well, lots of factors (and I'm going off My Humble Opinion here, not studies that I can point to.) One is the ability to move massive amounts of goods halfway around the world so that it is actually cheaper for the consumer and more profitable for the manufacturer to have products made ten thousand miles away. Container ships are gigantic-- here's mention of one that can carry "8,100 20-foot-long shipping containers". Also the ability to move massive amounts of data from just about anywhere in the world to just about anywhere else in the world-- jobs that can be done from telephones or computers can be sent out to anywhere else in the world. Either one of those could be stopped in the short term by building a legislative wall around the US-- but would be just burying our heads in the sand.

Another issue is consolidation of businesses-- the "Wal-Marting" factor. Large scale farming, or large chain stores (or large chains of large stores) can produce/sell products more efficiently/cheaply than lots of individual farms and lots of "mom and pop" stores-- but with far fewer employees (and owners.)

And, of course, there is the "digital revolution." Note how Tower Records stores aren't in every big town these days? And how Blockbuster Videos aren't? And how many bookstores are closing down? Thank downloaded digital versions and Amazon and Netflix and similar-- which don't produce nearly the amount of jobs they replace in serving the same volume of customers.

Another factor that comes to mind-- the cheapening of products-- I remember the days of TV repairmen and VCR repairmen (though I missed the days of radio repairmen) but now electronic products are cheap enough to produce (and difficult enough to work with) that people throw them away and buy another one rather than have them repaired.

I could sit and come up with more factors, but its enough to say that there are many classes of jobs that are simply going to go away from the US and never come back again no matter who is in office because of factors that have absolutely nothing to do with who is in the White House.

Luckily, the wheels of the American economy are still oiled by Useless Crap. If we (and the rest of the world) stopped buying Useless Crap, the world economy would collapse utterly. (Think about it-- if everyone bought only the things they needed and not the things they merely wanted-- including too much food, too much clothes, too big houses, too often a new car, replacing electronic items only after they break, not just for something faster or flashier-- how many of the jobs in the world would disappear then? 50 percent of them? 75 percent? Crap is what makes the world go round.)
While I do not disagree with your Humble Opinions (actually, they are good ones), what you describe has been going on for far longer than what would explain the current unemployment levels.

Based on your last paragraph, I'm a major contributor to the economic crisis in the US. I live in a mobile home and plan on moving into a smaller travel trailer soon. I do not replace my vehicles as long as they continue to meet my needs (transportation, not status) and it is still more economical to repair than replace. I only replace electronics when they break and it isn't economical to fix them or they no longer meet my needs (my last desktop computer lasted 7 years, my flatbed scanner will get replaced later this year because it is acting up and isn't compatible with anything above XP, I will replace my printer when it runs out of toner because chipped consumables that haven't expired are almost impossible to find anymore). I recently replaced an old HP camera only because it didn't have image stabilization and the old hands just aren't that stable anymore. Instead of buying more crap, I'm getting rid of it, giving it to people who need and can use it whenever possible rather than just tossing it. I'm not disagreeing with your statement about the economy being oiled by crap, especially since it's true. I just find it amusing that I'm such a detriment to it.
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Old 10-18-2010, 07:56 PM   #34
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Then what criteria do we have to judge them on when choosing?
I look at what they do.

If they say they are for swiss chees in every home, but they vote to give beans to everyone... I track the beans.
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Old 10-18-2010, 07:58 PM   #35
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Health care reform passed. Don't ask don't tell reform in the works. Rescued economy....
Iraq withdrawal, Afghanistan exit strategy..

No, it's not all rosy (odonnel?) but my personal feeling is we are in an infinitely better position than we were with Bush and Rumsfeld and Cheney ....

Better reputation/relations to much of the rest of the world....
Lets explore this. Better reputation/relations?

Mexico isn't too happy with us right now because we are having the audacity to try and seal the borders, and kick out the illegals that are here, sucking up health care and food stamps, and education. Oh, wait, thats Arizona they aren't happy with, we're actually doing something about it.........Obama (and to be fair, his predecessors) just want to talk about it.

Supposedly they are doing jobs Americans won't do. THAT must be why the guy I hired to cut some trees down is having to stop advertising in Peoria, and having to hire more people because he actually pays his people a decent wage, and is booked weeks ahead.

Do you suppose that if agriculture would do the same, there might not be such a problem? I'd gladly pay a little more for strawberries knowing I wasn't eating something harvested by underpaid, overworked, taken advantage of illegals.

Venezuela, Iran, North Korea........they're not too happy with us either. Hmmm. Wonder what we could do to make that better. Obama feels that if he talks long enough, he'll change their mind. Do you not realize he's a joke, and they are laughing their asses off at him and us?

so......who is it that likes us better again? Is it Iraq? I don't think so.

Tell me.....where are we more 'liked'?
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Old 10-18-2010, 08:22 PM   #36
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...

Luckily, the wheels of the American economy are still oiled by Useless Crap. If we (and the rest of the world) stopped buying Useless Crap, the world economy would collapse utterly. (Think about it-- if everyone bought only the things they needed and not the things they merely wanted-- including too much food, too much clothes, too big houses, too often a new car, replacing electronic items only after they break, not just for something faster or flashier-- how many of the jobs in the world would disappear then? 50 percent of them? 75 percent? Crap is what makes the world go round.)
Queue "The Story of Stuff"

http://www.storyofstuff.com/
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Old 10-18-2010, 08:23 PM   #37
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....

Tell me.....where are we more 'liked'?
Most of the world DGM - Europe, Africa much of Asia....

Here's what happened with Bush:

http://pewglobal.org/2008/12/18/glob...ars-2001-2008/




you want more of that?


Here's what Mexico thinks:
http://pewglobal.org/2010/08/12/mexi...-for-drug-war/

here's what some south american countries think:


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Old 10-18-2010, 09:11 PM   #38
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I don't know why I bother anymore. 2012 just may be the end of the world since possible choices include Mit Romney, Sarah Palin, and Joe Arpaio (Obama won't have a prayer).
You forgot about Newt!
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Old 10-18-2010, 09:15 PM   #39
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[QUOTE=kennyc;1169263]

Here's what Mexico thinks:
http://pewglobal.org/2010/08/12/mexi...-for-drug-war/

Here's what else Mexico
and several other foreign countries think....because...borders should be eliminated.

http://www.azcentral.com/12news/news...-response.html

How do foreign countries have the arrogance to demand representation in US laws?
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Old 10-18-2010, 09:20 PM   #40
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Same reason we think we have the right to remove troublesome leaders of other countries....even by military force in some cases.
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Old 10-18-2010, 09:22 PM   #41
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While I do not disagree with your Humble Opinions (actually, they are good ones), what you describe has been going on for far longer than what would explain the current unemployment levels.

Based on your last paragraph, I'm a major contributor to the economic crisis in the US. I live in a mobile home and plan on moving into a smaller travel trailer soon. I do not replace my vehicles as long as they continue to meet my needs (transportation, not status) and it is still more economical to repair than replace. I only replace electronics when they break and it isn't economical to fix them or they no longer meet my needs (my last desktop computer lasted 7 years, my flatbed scanner will get replaced later this year because it is acting up and isn't compatible with anything above XP, I will replace my printer when it runs out of toner because chipped consumables that haven't expired are almost impossible to find anymore). I recently replaced an old HP camera only because it didn't have image stabilization and the old hands just aren't that stable anymore. Instead of buying more crap, I'm getting rid of it, giving it to people who need and can use it whenever possible rather than just tossing it. I'm not disagreeing with your statement about the economy being oiled by crap, especially since it's true. I just find it amusing that I'm such a detriment to it.
Aha! It's YOUR fault!
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Old 10-18-2010, 09:30 PM   #42
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Aha! It's YOUR fault!
Hanging head in shame...
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Old 10-18-2010, 09:30 PM   #43
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Same reason we think we have the right to remove troublesome leaders of other countries....even by military force in some cases.
So a law intended to control unlawful entry and removal of illegals equals a military coup?

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Old 10-18-2010, 11:36 PM   #44
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There is a candidate who is more popular with foreign tourists.

Since that is what it takes to be an American President now.

Check out Robert Burck, New York City's "Naked Cowboy" !

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Old 10-19-2010, 05:11 AM   #45
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Guys, please return to the topic discussion of "whether the Greek scientist Archimedes really set fire to an invading Roman fleet using only mirrors and the reflected rays of the sun" or other episodes of the mythbuster programs.

US politics is not the topic of this thread nor should it be.

Thanks!

Cheers,
Alexander / MR Mod
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