Glo Kobo Glo: impossible to read PDFs? - Page 4

robko · 12-25-2012, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jusmee

I am astounded that people can argue that it is so hard to do, when it's been done, very successfully, by other ereader manufacturers. It doesn't make the PDF into a perfect epub, but it makes it much more pleasurable to read, and that's all we are asking.

I'm not arguing it CAN'T be done and done well, just that it's probably not as easy as you seem to think. To take it to a ridiculous extreme, pyramids and be build and built well. That doesn't mean it's easy. And even though Kobo has a large company backing them now, they are still a relatively small player vs an Amazon or Sony and therefore have limited resources that they have to allocate and they feel that reflow doesn't gain them enough to justify it.

jusmee · 12-25-2012, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robko

I'm not arguing it CAN'T be done and done well, just that it's probably not as easy as you seem to think. To take it to a ridiculous extreme, pyramids and be build and built well. That doesn't mean it's easy. And even though Kobo has a large company backing them now, they are still a relatively small player vs an Amazon or Sony and therefore have limited resources that they have to allocate and they feel that reflow doesn't gain them enough to justify it.

I know I am sounding too argumentative, so I'll just finish by saying, sorry, but I still believe it's easy, because the readers I have that do reflow, are not Sony, but even smaller players like Astak, and my wife has a BeBook. It's not what Kobo would gain by having a decent PDF reader, but what they will lose. I have an ulterior motive in wishing Kobo would step up, because I really don't like the idea of just a couple of big players in the market. I'd hate to be forced to buy a Kindle, because that's the only choice.

DNSB · 12-25-2012, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jusmee

I know I am sounding too argumentative, so I'll just finish by saying, sorry, but I still believe it's easy, because the readers I have that do reflow, are not Sony, but even smaller players like Astak, and my wife has a BeBook. It's not what Kobo would gain by having a decent PDF reader, but what they will lose. I have an ulterior motive in wishing Kobo would step up, because I really don't like the idea of just a couple of big players in the market. I'd hate to be forced to buy a Kindle, because that's the only choice.

Of the people I know who have Kindles, the only one who is happy with her Kindle and PDFs owns a Kindle DX which had a 9.7" eInk display. The other owners have the same complaint I have about the screen being too small to see diagrams clearly. For me, that is one of the main uses for my iPad.

Regards,
David

GadgetMan · 12-25-2012, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jusmee

I have the same beef. And no it's not just Sony that does reflow. Many other ebook readers can do it. Astak, Hanlin, Bebook etc etc - all do it excellently.

Kobo are USELESS for PDF.

It's not designed for that.. Crazy stuff.. use it for what it is designed for.. use it as a Kobo.. these ereaders are cheap.. get several.. than you have no problems.. dah..

jusmee · 12-25-2012, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GadgetMan

It's not designed for that.

Yes it is, says so in the sales blurb. You can't have it both ways. Take the claim off the features list, and then I'd agree. Check your facts

meeera · 12-25-2012, 08:26 PM

Oh, GadgetMan even considers borrowing library books to be an Offence against the Virgin Device, or something. And thinks we can all afford half a dozen devices and a complete stable of full-price retail books. At 200-300 books a year, let's see, that would cost me ... *counts on fingers* *chokes*

jusmee · 12-25-2012, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by meeera

Oh, GadgetMan even considers borrowing library books to be an Offence against the Virgin Device, or something. And thinks we can all afford half a dozen devices and a complete stable of full-price retail books. At 200-300 books a year, let's see, that would cost me ... *counts on fingers* *chokes*

LOL Yes, guess I found my new year resolution, Don't feed the trolls

ottdmk · 12-25-2012, 08:37 PM

It really comes down to differences in the way people believe Kobo should support PDFs. Kobo is 100% correct when it says it fully supports PDFs. If you load a PDF, a Kobo will show you the page exactly as it is specified in the PDF file.

Of course, showing a Letter size page on a 6" (or 5" if you use a Mini) diagonal screen is going to be virtually unreadable. (I say virtually because I can do it with some of my gaming PDFs.)

However, I don't consider this case to be Kobo being misleading. As numerous others have stated, PDFs specify how a page is to be shown. Kobo supports the file format, therefore it shows the page as specified.

Perhaps it would be nice if Kobo attempted to reflow and resize the text. However, given the nature of my PDF books, I would absolutely hate it, as I have no doubt whatsoever that the layout would be completely messed up.

This is not a case of a company being false with consumers. The company is doing exactly what it claims to in the case of PDFs. That there is a small segment of consumers who feel they should be doing more (ie going the extra mile) does not make the company's claim any less true.

Danger · 12-25-2012, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Portable Document Format (PDF) is a file format used to represent documents in a manner independent of application software, hardware, and operating systems.[1] Each PDF file encapsulates a complete description of a fixed-layout flat document, including the text, fonts, graphics, and other information needed to display it.

PDF's were never intended to be read on a 6" screen. You want to read a PDF the way it is suppose to be viewed, get an iPad or equivilent tablet.

Crexis · 12-28-2012, 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danger

PDF's were never intended to be read on a 6" screen.

Why do people keep bringing up this purely theoretical argument.

Yes, strictly speaking, you're correct. However in everyday practice, a whole bunch of PDFs is what I have (not epub, not txt, not doc, PDF). And no author is even aware of the kind of screen or display it's intended to be read. That's just a technical detail, simply not part of their reality whatsoever.

Does an author working with a 26" monitor ever consider that people with a 15" laptop may want to read the PDF too? No. They're not even aware this is an issue. Does this happen in reality? Yes, of course, all the time.

Quote:

You want to read a PDF the way it is suppose to be viewed, get an iPad or equivilent tablet.

No, I don't care about the way it is "supposed" to be viewed. (By the way, supposed by whom? Certainly not its author, they don't even know about this)

I want to read a PDF the best way possible, given the material I have: a Kobo Glo.

Converting them to ePub through an external tool usually does a good job (which clearly proves that a very workable acceptable solution exists), albeit a tedious, inconvenient process to do this for every PDF. I think it's extremely user unfriendly that the Kobo eReader doesn't have similar functionality built in.

buffaloseven · 12-28-2012, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crexis

Why do people keep bringing up this purely theoretical argument.

Yes, strictly speaking, you're correct. However in everyday practice, a whole bunch of PDFs is what I have (not epub, not txt, not doc, PDF). And no author is even aware of the kind of screen or display it's intended to be read. That's just a technical detail, simply not part of their reality whatsoever.

Does an author working with a 26" monitor ever consider that people with a 15" laptop may want to read the PDF too? No. They're not even aware this is an issue. Does this happen in reality? Yes, of course, all the time.

No, I don't care about the way it is "supposed" to be viewed. (By the way, supposed by whom? Certainly not its author, they don't even know about this)

I want to read a PDF the best way possible, given the material I have: a Kobo Glo.

Converting them to ePub through an external tool usually does a good job (which clearly proves that a very workable acceptable solution exists), albeit a tedious, inconvenient process to do this for every PDF. I think it's extremely user unfriendly that the Kobo eReader doesn't have similar functionality built in.

That's the point though; the author doesn't care what screen you have. They have laid out the PDF exactly the way they want it to be seen.

I'm not saying that a reflow feature wouldn't be appreciated, just making sure that people know that it's a hack, no two ways about it, and it would likely fail on many, many PDF documents with anything beyond basic formatting.

Yes, reflow could be a nice little feature. No, Kobo has not mislead anyone, they support the PDF standard just fine. Yes, PDFs are, in general, a horrible format for any text-heavy documents that don't rely on complex formatting.

jusmee · 12-28-2012, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by buffaloseven

That's the point though; the author doesn't care what screen you have. They have laid out the PDF exactly the way they want it to be seen.

Yes, and that is the obvious contradiction. It's why it doesn't work when the screen is smaller. It's no use saying the PDF has to be displayed the way the creator had intended.

buffaloseven · 12-28-2012, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jusmee

Yes, and that is the obvious contradiction. It's why it doesn't work when the screen is smaller. It's no use saying the PDF has to be displayed the way the creator had intended.

It's bothersome on small screens, yes, but all I'm saying is that any PDF reflow feature is an unsupported hack. As far as I know, the PDF standard includes nothing about dynamically reflowing text. The reality is that if anyone had really been able to do it well, and reliably, the feature would be all over the place, not just on a few ereaders.

jusmee · 12-28-2012, 07:50 PM

Adobe themselves do it.

"Reading PDFs with reflow and accessibility features" - http://help.adobe.com/en_US/acrobat/...ff-7d19.w.html

vernel1008 · 02-26-2013, 06:45 PM

Based on the discussion above and my cumbersome experience...

I regret buying a Kobo Glo.

All of my books are in PDF and it is **** when reading in my Kobo Glo!
I found paradise when I downloaded KEPUB from the store which are basically the NOT-SO-GOOD to the CRAPPY books from smashwords.

The company is making you believe that PDF is **** and KEPUB is the way to go! Spend more money on us! This is the same with an overpriced Kobo Glo Case from them (more expensive than the Kobo itself) while in fact it could have been sold more cheaply!

I really regret buying this device when buying a cheaper Android Tablet may have done reading PDFs more conveniently. You may argue that the battery life of Kobo is way better than Tablets but at least they can show PDFs better or at least give you a choice.

A company who are abandoning their customers demand about having a better reading experience with their device will go down the gutter. I have seen a lot of old topics here in mobileread that are still not fixed by Kobo or better yet abandoned.

I REALLY REGRET BUYING A KOBO GLO.

Now there goes my morning rant.

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12-25-2012, 08:26 PM	#51
meeera Grand Sorcerer Posts: 5,658 Karma: 66417824 Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Australia Device: Kobo Libra 2, iPadMini4, iPad4, MBP; support other Kobo/Kindles	Oh, GadgetMan even considers borrowing library books to be an Offence against the Virgin Device, or something. And thinks we can all afford half a dozen devices and a complete stable of full-price retail books. At 200-300 books a year, let's see, that would cost me ... counts on fingers chokes

12-25-2012, 08:37 PM	#53
ottdmk Wizard Posts: 1,196 Karma: 3765734 Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Device: Kobo Libra 2, Lenovo Tab M10 FHD Plus, Lenovo Tab M8 HD	It really comes down to differences in the way people believe Kobo should support PDFs. Kobo is 100% correct when it says it fully supports PDFs. If you load a PDF, a Kobo will show you the page exactly as it is specified in the PDF file. Of course, showing a Letter size page on a 6" (or 5" if you use a Mini) diagonal screen is going to be virtually unreadable. (I say virtually because I can do it with some of my gaming PDFs.) However, I don't consider this case to be Kobo being misleading. As numerous others have stated, PDFs specify how a page is to be shown. Kobo supports the file format, therefore it shows the page as specified. Perhaps it would be nice if Kobo attempted to reflow and resize the text. However, given the nature of my PDF books, I would absolutely hate it, as I have no doubt whatsoever that the layout would be completely messed up. This is not a case of a company being false with consumers. The company is doing exactly what it claims to in the case of PDFs. That there is a small segment of consumers who feel they should be doing more (ie going the extra mile) does not make the company's claim any less true.

12-28-2012, 07:50 PM	#59
jusmee Wizard Posts: 1,047 Karma: 203682 Join Date: Oct 2009 Device: Libre 2	Adobe themselves do it. "Reading PDFs with reflow and accessibility features" - http://help.adobe.com/en_US/acrobat/...ff-7d19.w.html

02-26-2013, 06:45 PM	#60
vernel1008 Member Posts: 13 Karma: 17028 Join Date: Jan 2013 Device: Kobo Glo	Based on the discussion above and my cumbersome experience... I regret buying a Kobo Glo. All of my books are in PDF and it is ** when reading in my Kobo Glo! I found paradise when I downloaded KEPUB from the store which are basically the NOT-SO-GOOD to the CRAPPY books from smashwords. The company is making you believe that PDF is ** and KEPUB is the way to go! Spend more money on us! This is the same with an overpriced Kobo Glo Case from them (more expensive than the Kobo itself) while in fact it could have been sold more cheaply! I really regret buying this device when buying a cheaper Android Tablet may have done reading PDFs more conveniently. You may argue that the battery life of Kobo is way better than Tablets but at least they can show PDFs better or at least give you a choice. A company who are abandoning their customers demand about having a better reading experience with their device will go down the gutter. I have seen a lot of old topics here in mobileread that are still not fixed by Kobo or better yet abandoned. I REALLY REGRET BUYING A KOBO GLO. Now there goes my morning rant.