What's the legality of...

tcv · 11-06-2006, 09:41 AM

So, let's say I buy a paper book. It's paper. It's "real," it's in my hands.

I send that to a fellow who has a Snapscan and some OCR stuff. I throw him a few bucks to cut the book and convert it to digital for my Reader.

What's the legality? Legal? Not?

ultim8fury · 11-06-2006, 09:47 AM

Technically not. The copyright notice at the front of the book generally precludes the copying of the book. However in the UK it's not even legal to rip CDs to your own PC for your own use. The point is, who's going to know. As long as you aren't re-distributing it and causing loss of sales to the publisher/author/retail chain. My policy is that if you don't cause anyone harm (financially) then go for it.

Alexander Turcic · 11-06-2006, 10:35 AM

The same question was raised by our friends over at jkOnTheRun.

I view scanning the book into a digital form for easier access to be firmly in the "fair use" camp. It is no different than copying or handwriting a single chapter of the book to take to today's lecture to avoid carrying the 8 pound textbook. I don't think an argument can be made that this exceeds fair use. Even the evil RIAA doesn't go after legitimate consumers who make digital copies of music files they own, they go after people who distribute and download copyrighted material they do not own.

http://jkontherun.blogs.com/jkonther...ack_asks_.html

bostonte · 11-06-2006, 11:21 AM

Provided the person returns the original book to you (or it is completely destroyed), and keeps no copy of the scanned book for himself -- it falls under fair use.

Barring any other example off the top of my head, companies have been doing this for years to make unusual books available in Braille. As long as you have a purchased copy of the book, they will convert it for you and send it back with directions that you cannot redistribute.

The copyright notices in the front of the books generally refer to copying the book for means of redistribution. Those that DO specifically mention not copying or storing in electronic file system (etc.) in any manner are not tested legally yet to my knowledge -- and it could be easily argued that turning the paper book into a personal-use digital copy falls under access to content exclusions from copy prohibition.

All in all I may not want to be the one advertising the service, but I would be confident using such a service.

tcv · 11-06-2006, 11:39 AM

I would consider such a service pretty valuable to me. The SnapScan, while inexpensive, is not cheap after having bought a reader. So, I wouldn't mind sending something out there. ^__^

da_jane · 11-06-2006, 11:52 AM

The initial page does prohibit copying. It prohibits the scanning and uploading. There is a big difference. Additionally, just because the publisher stamps something on the book doesn't mean that is the law. They could stamp on the book: the resale of this book is prohibited but the first sale rule allows any purchaser to resell a legitimately purchased book. I believe it is fair use to scan a book and turn it into an e copy. Just as companies convert your CDs into mp3s, I think it would be valid for your friend to do as you described so long as said friend does not keep a copy for himself.

BuddyBoy · 11-06-2006, 06:08 PM

Who is this friend and where can I send him my books?!

There are some books I would be willing to buy a brand new copy to have them converted since my older copies are getting too worn for a run through a sheet feeder.

spinoza · 11-06-2006, 10:46 PM

The question whether an individual can scan a book for personal use under the Fair Use provisions is of course currently being tested in a big way by Google. Publishers and other authorial associations are demanding that Google stop scanning books as part of their Google Print/Library project, and Google believes their case is strong enough to allow it to go to court. Google contends that their scanning is in no way harming the commercial potential of an author's work, which is the primary reason why copyright exists. I'm not sure where it is now, but the fact that such a high profile case has gotten this far is a strong sign that there are compelling reasons why individuals should legally be able to scan books that they own for their own personal use. I believe that authors have a right to compensation for their works, and would not use scanning for any other purpose than to convert my own books to a more ergonomic format. Scanning a book for this reason is no different than our making tapes of old LPs that we owned, or in our digitizing them for our iPods. If publishers succeeded in making such an activity illegal, it would radically change the nature of copyright and how we deal with products that we have purchased and now own. Just imagine, it would become illegal for us to make any modifications to our computers, automobiles, stereos, etc etc!

ChrisAllenFiz · 11-08-2006, 10:40 AM

I urge everyone to copy anything they already own onto the reader, by ANY means necessary. Do what you believe is right, not what you are told is right.

11-06-2006, 09:41 AM	#1
tcv Addict Posts: 330 Karma: 596 Join Date: Oct 2006	What's the legality of... So, let's say I buy a paper book. It's paper. It's "real," it's in my hands. I send that to a fellow who has a Snapscan and some OCR stuff. I throw him a few bucks to cut the book and convert it to digital for my Reader. What's the legality? Legal? Not?

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11-06-2006, 09:47 AM	#2
ultim8fury Addict Posts: 219 Karma: 368 Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: UK Device: PRS500, Looking at 700	Technically not. The copyright notice at the front of the book generally precludes the copying of the book. However in the UK it's not even legal to rip CDs to your own PC for your own use. The point is, who's going to know. As long as you aren't re-distributing it and causing loss of sales to the publisher/author/retail chain. My policy is that if you don't cause anyone harm (financially) then go for it.

11-06-2006, 10:35 AM	#3
Alexander Turcic Fully Converged Posts: 18,163 Karma: 14021202 Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Switzerland Device: Too many to count here.	The same question was raised by our friends over at jkOnTheRun. I view scanning the book into a digital form for easier access to be firmly in the "fair use" camp. It is no different than copying or handwriting a single chapter of the book to take to today's lecture to avoid carrying the 8 pound textbook. I don't think an argument can be made that this exceeds fair use. Even the evil RIAA doesn't go after legitimate consumers who make digital copies of music files they own, they go after people who distribute and download copyrighted material they do not own. http://jkontherun.blogs.com/jkonther...ack_asks_.html

11-06-2006, 11:21 AM	#4
bostonte Enthusiast Posts: 36 Karma: 10 Join Date: Oct 2006 Device: Sony Reader	Provided the person returns the original book to you (or it is completely destroyed), and keeps no copy of the scanned book for himself -- it falls under fair use. Barring any other example off the top of my head, companies have been doing this for years to make unusual books available in Braille. As long as you have a purchased copy of the book, they will convert it for you and send it back with directions that you cannot redistribute. The copyright notices in the front of the books generally refer to copying the book for means of redistribution. Those that DO specifically mention not copying or storing in electronic file system (etc.) in any manner are not tested legally yet to my knowledge -- and it could be easily argued that turning the paper book into a personal-use digital copy falls under access to content exclusions from copy prohibition. All in all I may not want to be the one advertising the service, but I would be confident using such a service.

11-06-2006, 11:39 AM	#5
tcv Addict Posts: 330 Karma: 596 Join Date: Oct 2006	I would consider such a service pretty valuable to me. The SnapScan, while inexpensive, is not cheap after having bought a reader. So, I wouldn't mind sending something out there. ^__^

11-06-2006, 11:52 AM	#6
da_jane Evangelist Posts: 405 Karma: 692 Join Date: Sep 2006 Device: Samsung Galaxy Note 3 \| Kindle Paperwhite \| iPad Mini	The initial page does prohibit copying. It prohibits the scanning and uploading. There is a big difference. Additionally, just because the publisher stamps something on the book doesn't mean that is the law. They could stamp on the book: the resale of this book is prohibited but the first sale rule allows any purchaser to resell a legitimately purchased book. I believe it is fair use to scan a book and turn it into an e copy. Just as companies convert your CDs into mp3s, I think it would be valid for your friend to do as you described so long as said friend does not keep a copy for himself.

11-06-2006, 06:08 PM	#7
BuddyBoy eBookin' Fool Posts: 310 Karma: 1008360 Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Vancouver, BC Device: Kindle Paperwhite, KK, iPad (Ex Prs 505, 500, Reb1100-2150, Rocket)	Who is this friend and where can I send him my books?! There are some books I would be willing to buy a brand new copy to have them converted since my older copies are getting too worn for a run through a sheet feeder.

11-06-2006, 10:46 PM	#8
spinoza Member Posts: 16 Karma: 10 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Boston area Device: PRS-505, iPhone, MacBook Pro	The question whether an individual can scan a book for personal use under the Fair Use provisions is of course currently being tested in a big way by Google. Publishers and other authorial associations are demanding that Google stop scanning books as part of their Google Print/Library project, and Google believes their case is strong enough to allow it to go to court. Google contends that their scanning is in no way harming the commercial potential of an author's work, which is the primary reason why copyright exists. I'm not sure where it is now, but the fact that such a high profile case has gotten this far is a strong sign that there are compelling reasons why individuals should legally be able to scan books that they own for their own personal use. I believe that authors have a right to compensation for their works, and would not use scanning for any other purpose than to convert my own books to a more ergonomic format. Scanning a book for this reason is no different than our making tapes of old LPs that we owned, or in our digitizing them for our iPods. If publishers succeeded in making such an activity illegal, it would radically change the nature of copyright and how we deal with products that we have purchased and now own. Just imagine, it would become illegal for us to make any modifications to our computers, automobiles, stereos, etc etc!

11-08-2006, 10:40 AM	#9
ChrisAllenFiz Enthusiast Posts: 39 Karma: 173 Join Date: Oct 2006	I urge everyone to copy anything they already own onto the reader, by ANY means necessary. Do what you believe is right, not what you are told is right.

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