Surface Pro 3

[rcentros]

Originally Posted by WillysJeepMan

It sounds like you agree with what eschwartz said.

I've said before, I'm willing to use alternative apps as long as they provide the equivalent functionality of a "specifically named app". The problem is that in a fair number of cases, even the equivalent alternative doesn't exist. That condition will cause the tablet use experience of the Surface to be subpar compared to an iOS or Android tablet... compromising the whole converged idea of the Surface Pro.

I thought I was disagreeing with him. As for me, even when I used Windows (haven't for six years now) I didn't use the "standard" Windows' applications (Office, PhotoShop, and the others they're always telling Linux users they simply "must have"). I only used Microsoft applications when I absolutely had to (at work) and even then I brought my own dBase to work. So, I'm not arguing that these "standard" applications are superior or necessary ... I'm just saying that Microsoft has used the argument this argument, "if you don't use Windows you won't get to use the 'standard' applications either" for years. Since that's been one of their main selling points, it's not surprising that Surface RT users expect "the standard application" feature to apply to them also. Especially since a Surface RT looks so much like Windows 8.x on the Surface Pro.

[Shane R]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

We can speculate all we like, but in the end it will be the folks voting their wallets that determine whether they appreciate the features and tradeoffs or not and how far the Surfaces go.

I've read that MS will be targeting corporate buyers who are purchasing both a laptop and a tablet of some sort for their staff -- as opposed to making it a strict iPad vs Surface competition.

The presentation confused me because they focused so much on the Macbooks when the real interest in the device will be it's laptopability ((is that a word?)).

[pl001]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Wait... so if you want a device that "has apps" Win8 is great, but only once you (unreasonably) start wanting specific apps rather than the abstract concept of apps, is there grounds for complaining that the Windows Store is poor in apps?

I said it depends on your specific needs. The Windows Store will cover what 90% of tablet users use a tablet for and adds things that no other tablet does. If it doesn't offer what you need, it's not a good choice. Just like the lack of multitasking and full Office makes the iPad a poor choice for me.

No current device does it all so trying to claim one product is absolutely superior and another is worthless is ridiculous. Yet that is what many people want to do. There are plenty of good quality apps for the Surface and the store continues to improve at a fairly rapid pace. But if the one you want isn't there, it isn't there, and that needs to factor into your decision.

As for the specific apps I use in tablet mode, they include:

Hyper for YouTube
Windows Mail App
IE
Netflix
Bing Weather
Facebook
Twitter
Craigslist
Nook
Xbox Music/Video
Photos
Reader
OneDrive
A few misc games

There are others, but those are the only ones I really feel I need and use on a regular basis. A big thing to mention as well is that I have 4 profiles on it which makes family use a lot better. Then on the desktop side I use Outlook with my company's Exchange which works a lot better than the mandatory Good for Enterprise they require for Android or IOS, and I also use Word, Exel, and OneNote. The desktop still makes for the best file manager as well.

[WillysJeepMan]

Originally Posted by pl001

I said it depends on your specific needs. The Windows Store will cover what 90% of tablet users use a tablet for and adds things that no other tablet does. If it doesn't offer what you need, it's not a good choice. Just like the lack of multitasking and full Office makes the iPad a poor choice for me.

No current device does it all so trying to claim one product is absolutely superior and another is worthless is ridiculous. Yet that is what many people want to do. There are plenty of good quality apps for the Surface and the store continues to improve at a fairly rapid pace. But if the one you want isn't there, it isn't there, and that needs to factor into your decision.

I think that I missed the post where someone claimed that one product is absolutely superior and another worthless.

Microsoft is most definitely claiming that the Surface Pro 3 is quite capable of replacing both a notebook and tablet. (specifically of the Apple variety)

In the very limited sense, that is a true claim. It can replace a Windows ultrabook and a Windows tablet.

But replacing an MBA and iPad is a much taller order... for some it can, but for the majority I don't think it can.

[pl001]

Originally Posted by Shane R

I've read that MS will be targeting corporate buyers who are purchasing both a laptop and a tablet of some sort for their staff -- as opposed to making it a strict iPad vs Surface competition.

The presentation confused me because they focused so much on the Macbooks when the real interest in the device will be it's laptopability ((is that a word?)).

MacBook is a laptop, that's why they wanted to show "lapability" or whatever they were calling it.

[pl001]

Originally Posted by WillysJeepMan

I think that I missed the post where someone claimed that one product is absolutely superior and another worthless.

Microsoft is most definitely claiming that the Surface Pro 3 is quite capable of replacing both a notebook and tablet. (specifically of the Apple variety)

In the very limited sense, that is a true claim. It can replace a Windows ultrabook and a Windows tablet.

But replacing an MBA and iPad is a much taller order... for some it can, but for the majority I don't think it can.

Well, you called it a "poor" tablet and mgmueller said it "failed" as a tablet.

As for replacing an iPad and MBA, that's where we disagree. The apps you listed are specific to your needs. Most tablets spend most of their time surfing the internet, social media, music and videos, mail, and some light games. The Surface does all that easily enough.

[pl001]

Originally Posted by rcentros

I thought I was disagreeing with him. As for me, even when I used Windows (haven't for six years now) I didn't use the "standard" Windows' applications (Office, PhotoShop, and the others they're always telling Linux users they simply "must have"). I only used Microsoft applications when I absolutely had to (at work) and even then I brought my own dBase to work. So, I'm not arguing that these "standard" applications are superior or necessary ... I'm just saying that Microsoft has used the argument this argument, "if you don't use Windows you won't get to use the 'standard' applications either" for years. Since that's been one of their main selling points, it's not surprising that Surface RT users expect "the standard application" feature to apply to them also. Especially since a Surface RT looks so much like Windows 8.x on the Surface Pro.

Yeah, I think I see what you are saying, the tables have turned and now it is Apple with all the apps instead of Microsoft.

Microsoft was way too late to market, so it is what it is. I think they are doing a pretty good job though considering the market has only been open for 18 months.

[Shane R]

Originally Posted by pl001

Yeah, I think I see what you are saying, the tables have turned and now it is Apple with all the apps instead of Microsoft.

Microsoft was way too late to market, so it is what it is. I think they are doing a pretty good job though considering the market has only been open for 18 months.

I think there are two very different usage styles and app ecosystems at work here, and that the majority of those interested in the Surface won't intersect with or miss the apps available for the iOS ecosystem if they feel compelled to move away from it.

[pl001]

Originally Posted by Shane R

I think there are two very different usage styles and app ecosystems at work here, and that the majority of those interested in the Surface won't intersect with or miss the apps available for the iOS ecosystem if they feel compelled to move away from it.

I disagree. As I have mentioned most tablets are used for pretty basic stuff that can be handled by iOS, Android, or Windows. Windows adds a full desktop experience on top of that. Microsoft's goal is to compete directly with the iPad with RT as well as define a new market with the Pro line. The Metro/Modern interface is clearly aimed at iPad-type use cases.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by rcentros

Here's the problem ... Microsoft has been "making hay" for years over the fact that Windows is required to run certain "standard" applications, that's why it's supposedly "superior" to Linux (or so the argument goes). So is it the fault of Surface RT buyers that they expect a Microsoft product to be compatible with Windows applications?

If you can't get the specific Windows apps you expect on a Windows machine, what's the advantage of the Surface RT over an Android, or an iPad or a Chromebook? After all these also come with the "abstract concept of apps." And, with the iPad and Android tablets there are many, many more and many more polished apps than with the Surface RT.

I agree that I was agreeing with you. I was directing snark at the idea that the qualifications for Win8 Metro being a success are "it has apps". The "abstract concept of apps" vs "specific apps" meaning that if I want to do something and look for a app to do it, I will find one on Android and iOS, but not necessarily on Win8. If I look for apps and then figure out something to do with them, then sure, Win8 has apps.

Win8 has apps. Android/iOS has the apps people want.

[leebase]

Originally Posted by pl001

Well, you called it a "poor" tablet and mgmueller said it "failed" as a tablet.

As for replacing an iPad and MBA, that's where we disagree. The apps you listed are specific to your needs. Most tablets spend most of their time surfing the internet, social media, music and videos, mail, and some light games. The Surface does all that easily enough.

The old "linux is good enough" argument. You are absolutely right. If you don't have any but the most basic needs....linux on the desktop is great and Android is amazing for a tablet.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by leebase

The old "linux is good enough" argument. You are absolutely right. If you don't have any but the most basic needs....linux on the desktop is great and Android is amazing for a tablet.

In what manner is Android falling short as a tablet?

I will grant you the linux point (although I maintain it is the software developers' fault, for not building linux versions, but that is an irrelevant point in this context).

[Rbneader]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

In what manner is Android falling short as a tablet?

I will grant you the linux point (although I maintain it is the software developers' fault, for not building linux versions, but that is an irrelevant point in this context).

Depends on what your tablet needs to do.

Mobile reading? Android works great.
Mobile video? Almost as good as my PC.
Mobile productivity? Like a brick. Business and professional software for Android is bad. Hard to use, buggy, lacks major features.

[pl001]

Originally Posted by leebase

The old "linux is good enough" argument.

Well no, not exactly, because Windows also offers a much more powerful interface than Android or iOS with real multitasking and a desktop along with standardized USB and HDMI. I don't need 20 different specialized apps and accessories to get work done on my Surface. That kind of ease of use is the opposite of Linux.

Again, your needs and wants may vary, but don't assume that nothing complex can be done on Windows because there are "only" 100,000 some apps instead of 700,000 (or whatever today's numbers are).

[WillysJeepMan]

Originally Posted by pl001

Well, you called it a "poor" tablet and mgmueller said it "failed" as a tablet.

If you think that "poor" is a synonym for "worthless" then what can I say. I noticed that you ignored my "terrific netbook" praise for the Surface 2. The only way you can equate terrific + poor = worthless is if you are blindly loyal to Microsoft and cannot appreciate a comment that is not 100% glowingly positive.

Originally Posted by pl001

As for replacing an iPad and MBA, that's where we disagree. The apps you listed are specific to your needs. Most tablets spend most of their time surfing the internet, social media, music and videos, mail, and some light games. The Surface does all that easily enough.

...and so does a cheap sub $99 Android tablet. If that is someone's use case for a tablet, then the Surface Pro 3 is way overpriced for what they intend to do. Which is another claim (overpriced) that some have made.