Kobo Navigation INSANITY

[fxp33]

Hi,

Some example of the problems I face:

Recent addition:
- When I add a bunch of new files, I see the number of books added in a tile (Good)
- I expect to be able to see them, in order to attach them to corresponding collections
- Well, no, you can't! If you add 22 books, you have to find them one by one in your library to attach them to a collection

File Types:
If you use your reader to carry a part of your work and personal life, you end up with a lot of files: pdf, conversions in txt, epubs and maybe kepubs of course, a few mangas...
- You sort by File type (Good)
- But how to jump to the start of the "kepub" files ? Is that page 30, 40, 200, 600 ? Too low and you are in the "epubs"; too far and you are in the "pdf"!

In collections: authors and titles
- you can browse by collection (Good) Let's go inside "Crime Stories".
- how to skip the 30 pages of Agatha Christie, or the 20 pages of Conan Doyle?
-Well, you are stuck, no list, no next button. Either you browse everything; or you know exactly what you want and you do a search.

Search and keyboard:
-you can search for authors and titles (Good)
- But don't expect to type a foreign name with the keyboard Че́хов (tchekhov) or 芥川龍之介 (Akutagawa) might be harder to find
- The foreign lot would be somewhere at the end, just browse everything, because you can't search for it... except by changing the language of the interface.

Cross collections
- well, don't expect a query language to be accessible for advanced users. It's not like all the data was stored inside a relational database.

Languages:
- No way to sort by language

Saving a search:
- Well, not quite sure you can stick a tile with your search, to save it for another time.

Browse SDCARD:
- Well, no, you can't open a book, a pdf file, or even a txt file or a jpg from the sdcard directly, sorry.



Feel free to add features missing for you.

François

[meeera]

Originally Posted by fxp33

Recent addition:
- When I add a bunch of new files, I see the number of books added in a tile (Good)
- I expect to be able to see them, in order to attach them to corresponding collections
- Well, no, you can't! If you add 22 books, you have to find them one by one in your library to attach them to a collection

Or you can go to your Library and sort it by Recent. The books you added will be at the top.

Far better, though, would be to use Calibre to manage your books and your Kobo collections. Problem completely averted.

File Types:
If you use your reader to carry a part of your work and personal life, you end up with a lot of files: pdf, conversions in txt, epubs and maybe kepubs of course, a few mangas...
- You sort by File type (Good)
- But how to jump to the start of the "kepub" files ? Is that page 30, 40, 200, 600 ? Too low and you are in the "epubs"; too far and you are in the "pdf"!

I don't quite understand this one. Do you figure out what you want to read next based on what format it's in? You can use use the Search function, or your Collections, to find your next read.

[davidfor]

Originally Posted by fxp33

In collections: authors and titles
- you can browse by collection (Good) Let's go inside "Crime Stories".
- how to skip the 30 pages of Agatha Christie, or the 20 pages of Conan Doyle?
-Well, you are stuck, no list, no next button. Either you browse everything; or you know exactly what you want and you do a search.

With a collection, you have exactly the same navigation options as in the main library list: swipe to go to the next page or press the "Page x of y" to bring up the goto page dialog. Or have I missed something?

Browse SDCARD:
- Well, no, you can't open a book, a pdf file, or even a txt file or a jpg from the sdcard directly, sorry.

All books that are on the SD card should in the library. Look for it and open it from there. And no, Kobo don't show where the books is stored, but, why do you need to? Again, just find the book and read it.

[speakingtohe]

I am not a big Kobo fan, but I must point out that the shelves/collections behave almost identically sorting wise as those on Sony readers. IMO they are better than the kindle ones (my mothers kindle three where they reorder themselves in a strange manner(to me)). Neither have a built in function to sort by language and I would have a hard time searching for a Japanese name on my desktop, laptop or tablet without changing the keyboard layout. I know I could do it if I really tried, but it is not a standard function normally. On the Kobo you can change the language, so I assume it could be done as well. The Sony readers will not allow you to open the books from the SD card directly and neither will the kindle as it doesn't have and SD card.

There are readers with these functionalities but many (the most commonly sold in North America) don't.

As meeera said, it is much easier to manage your collections using calibre and this will make it easier to navigate on your Glo. Your choice of course, but I cannot imagine entering 30 pages of Agatha Christie books and short stories into collection(s) one at a time on the Kobo or any other reader.

Helen

[Anak]

Well, hopefully Kobo staff reads this and can add some basic sorting filters or improve the existing ones.
And there is a difference between searching and browsing. IMO, seaching for specific titles or authors works quite well. While browsing through the library can become (is) very painstaking if there is a huge amount of books stored on the device.

A "Jump to first" (book title from the next autor)/"Skip all next booktitles from present highlighted/selected author" is welcome.
Some autors like Agatha Cristie, Georges Simenon, Gérard de Villiers were very productive.

[fxp33]

Hi

@Meera: Hi, first thank you for your reply About the sorting by "recent", I think it sorts the recently read files, not the recently added ones. But I can be mistaken. (Software version 3.0.0, 11/12/13)
As for the second part, you are absolutely right: my argument is not adapted to choosing what to read. Nevertheless, when checking how the epubs I edit look like, I need to get to the kepub section and open them one after another... and I spend 10 minutes finding the start of the section

@Speakingtohe: nice conversing again. It is nice to hear that "the grass is not greener elsewhere"... kind of comforting Nevertheless, I still advocate for more improvement on the navigating side (before more social networking). As you know I do use Calibre, with multiple shelve tags... I express my need for a multiple collection filter on my device accordingly.

@DavidFor: Hi again. I meant that swiping 30 times of Agatha Christie to see who is next in the "crime story" collection is a bit tiresome... especially if you already did quite a few swipes through Chesterton. A reader without an Author list is just... well, I can't grasp it.

@Anak: exactly

Ok, I am a bit harsh on Kobo... but it misses just a few enhancement to make it really efficient. And this navigation is terribly inefficient for my use.

Regards

François

[booklover6]

Originally Posted by fxp33

Hi

@Meera: Hi, first thank you for your reply About the sorting by "recent", I think it sorts the recently read files, not the recently added ones. But I can be mistaken. (Software version 3.0.0, 11/12/13)

François

You are mistaken. It shows recently added, until you start opening files.

[davidfor]

Originally Posted by fxp33

Hi

@Meera: Hi, first thank you for your reply About the sorting by "recent", I think it sorts the recently read files, not the recently added ones. But I can be mistaken. (Software version 3.0.0, 11/12/13)

It is a combination of both. If the book has been opened, the last read date us used. If it hasn't been opened, then the date the device first saw the book is used.

As for the second part, you are absolutely right: my argument is not adapted to choosing what to read. Nevertheless, when checking how the epubs I edit look like, I need to get to the kepub section and open them one after another... and I spend 10 minutes finding the start of the section

I use the "Recently Read" list for that.
[QUOTE]
@DavidFor: Hi again. I meant that swiping 30 times of Agatha Christie to see who is next in the "crime story" collection is a bit tiresome... especially if you already did quite a few swipes through Chesterton. A reader without an Author list is just... well, I can't grasp it.
[QUOTE]
In earlier firmware, the library lists had a slider at the bottom to quickly jump through the lists. Now, you have to press the page number at the top and enter a new page number. But, yes, an author list is one of the things missing.

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by fxp33

@Meera: Hi, first thank you for your reply About the sorting by "recent", I think it sorts the recently read files, not the recently added ones. But I can be mistaken. (Software version 3.0.0, 11/12/13)

Recently read is a bit of a misnomer. Recent added files will show up at the start of that sort. If you tap on the tile showing the number of added books, it will open the library view in recently read mode.

Originally Posted by fxp33

As for the second part, you are absolutely right: my argument is not adapted to choosing what to read. Nevertheless, when checking how the epubs I edit look like, I need to get to the kepub section and open them one after another... and I spend 10 minutes finding the start of the section

I tend to use the goto page number with guesstimates as to where I want to start. Since I don't have many kepubs, I'd go to page 300 of 315. Not quite right, just ahead another 5 pages or back 5 pages. And once you have found the start of that section, you can always remember the number though that may be considered as heresy in the days of expecting your computer to do all the work.

Originally Posted by fxp33

@DavidFor: Hi again. I meant that swiping 30 times of Agatha Christie to see who is next in the "crime story" collection is a bit tiresome... especially if you already did quite a few swipes through Chesterton. A reader without an Author list is just... well, I can't grasp it.

So tap on the displayed page of total pages, add 30 to the current page number, enter it on the keyboard and go there. If nothing else a simply binary divide search gets me anywhere in my collection in well under 30 taps.

Originally Posted by fxp33

Ok, I am a bit harsh on Kobo... but it misses just a few enhancement to make it really efficient. And this navigation is terribly inefficient for my use.

The problem is for you to convince Kobo that enough of their customers would welcome those features so they would be willing to spend the dollars on developing them. I don't know how many ebooks the average Kobo owner has on their device but one number I saw for Amazon's Kindles was 27. Ask in a Mobileread forum and the number is likely to be much higher but, in my not so humble opinion, the Mobileread community does not represent the average ereader user.

Regards,
David

[speakingtohe]

@fxp33
Kobo used to have slidebars but they misplaced them somewhere along the way. They weren't great but better than the current page system in shelves and books. I think 2.6.1 had sliders but not sure.

I like shelves/collections even if dreadfully slow on Kobo. I have several readers so on one I have author collections and on another I have series/genre collections. Still not a great solution but is ok. On my Sony readers I can have both as they are much more efficient and even the older Sonys have both sliders and goto page numbers which actually work smoothly. So we know it can be done.

I actually think Kobo staff is trying to fix things and make them better. Unfortunately they fix one thing and one or two others get broken or disappear, and a new 'undocumented feature' is often introduced. Must be horribly frustrating and embarrassing for them.

Helen

[Athropos]

Originally Posted by DNSB

So tap on the displayed page of total pages, add 30 to the current page number, enter it on the keyboard and go there. If nothing else a simply binary divide search gets me anywhere in my collection in well under 30 taps.

I think his point is that he doesn't know how many pages he has to go through to find the next author, so he can't simply add X pages to the current one.

And a binary search is just a workaround, the actual solution would be indeed to have at a first level a list of authors, and then choosing one of the authors would bring you to the corresponding books. Isn't that possible?

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by Athropos

I think his point is that he doesn't know how many pages he has to go through to find the next author, so he can't simply add X pages to the current one.

And a binary search is just a workaround, the actual solution would be indeed to have at a first level a list of authors, and then choosing one of the authors would bring you to the corresponding books. Isn't that possible?

Given the number of authors I have on my Kobo, searching is a lot faster than scrolling through a list of authors stored over how ever many pages it takes to hold 349 authors. Looking for a specific book? Enter the title or series. Looking for the Grantville Gazette? Type in gr and there's the link by series name and a list of all 50 volumes. Looking for Grantville Gazette volume 39? Enter 39 in the search field and there are two books. Granville Gazette volume 39, and Possession in Death (In Death series #39).

Why tap and swipe when you can search? Why scroll through a list of authors when search is much more efficient?

When using the search bar, it takes me a maximum of 4 taps to get to library search mode (reading a book so tap the middle of the screen, tap the upper right hand menu, tap the search bar, tap library radio button. From library and home page, two taps. Add 3-4 taps for the author or book name and one more to select the results. So a maximum of 9 taps and I've scrolling through a list of the author's books on my ereader -- if they have more than one page of results -- or reading the ebook I was looking for.

As for the binary search? In my opinion, his statement about the number of swipes/taps to locate an author was based on a very poor methodology when even a simple binary search would locate the desired result with a lot fewer taps/swipes. If I have the library sorted by author, it's more efficient to jump ahead multiple pages rather than swiping past every page to locate a specific author. Using his example of having to swipe by 30 pages of Agatha Christie books, if you know you have about 30 pages of a specific author, jumping ahead 30 pages and correcting, if needed, by swiping is a lot more efficient than swiping through those 30 pages.

As for the non-Latin alphabet author names, I either Anglicize them (Толстой to Tolstoy for example) or simply jump to the end of the ebook list when sorted by author (a back swipe from the first page works quite well) since they tend to sort to the end of the listing. I have very few of those so not a big worry for me.

A lot of his other complaints are equally paltry. A sort by language? How many of Kobo's customers are panting for that feature? Unable to directly open file by browsing on his SDcard? If the book is accessible to your Kobo, it's in the database. If he's still unhappy, he can check out Koreader or Coolreader. Be prepared to enjoy being a beta tester as neither is ready for prime time. A query language for searching the database? Again, a feature that very few people are going to be waiting for.

Items such as his lack of knowledge about simple items such as newly added books being shown at the start of the recently read listing or being able to tap on the page number/total display to bring up a goto page number entry screen suggests to me that François has spent more time whinging about what he wants and less time learning how to efficiently use features his Kobo does offer.

Regards,
David

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by davidfor

In earlier firmware, the library lists had a slider at the bottom to quickly jump through the lists. Now, you have to press the page number at the top and enter a new page number. But, yes, an author list is one of the things missing.

I'd have to disagree with you. Assuming that they doubled the entry density used to display book entries in the library, I'd see 12 entries per page for an author list and would need 30 pages to display all the authors currently represented on my Aura HD. So I'd end up searching the author listing to get the same results I'd get by searching the library listing.

If someone proposed a search within search results, that would capture my attention.

As for the slider, I can't be the only person who remembers how inaccurate it could be? Lifting your finger and having it jump 5 pages? The trick of rolling your finger to give more accurate results?

Regards,
David

[anacreon]

On the reader, when I know which author I'm looking for, I use DNSB's method, which I find very efficient, much more than on Sony, since I don't even have to exit a book for it.

When I'm looking for an idea what I could read, I find it easier to browse through the calibre catalogue I update regularly: it is a full catalogue, including those books not currently on my reader (only 1782 books/839 authors, compared to the full 3943/1468).

I include in this authors, series and tags sections, and add prefixes: A for those books in Archive (calibre), S for those reserved for my Sony reader (a few pdfs not adaptable to epub), 2 for those read on a reader, 1 for those I read only on paper (but could wish to reread).

An example on my aura hd: on one page among the authors H section, I have 21 books by 8 authors, with A, 1, 2 or no prefix, for one of them the name of the series under the author and the books listed by series number (in square brackets).

Occasionally I also generate a detailed catalogue with the descriptions, just for those books on the kobo (it would be too big otherwise, already 29 MB for the kobo), for when I have really no idea what will be my next book, and wish to browse the metadata more efficiently (for fxp33, you can add file type, but only for those on calibre, not those kepubs converted when transferred to the device).

But still and all, I like to remind myself of books by their cover on the calibre grid, on my widescreen PC, which helps me add some to my "to read" list.

PS: For language sort I have tags, so l can browse by tag in the catalogue. Like all tags I want at the start of the list, they begin with a number, for instance 3.5 italien. I also have a "pdf!" tag for those books that don't convert well to epubs, and a "no kepub" for those epubs that don't either, for which I have to remember to desactivate the conversion when transferring.

[davidfor]

Originally Posted by DNSB

I'd have to disagree with you. Assuming that they doubled the entry density used to display book entries in the library, I'd see 12 entries per page for an author list and would need 30 pages to display all the authors currently represented on my Aura HD. So I'd end up searching the author listing to get the same results I'd get by searching the library listing.

To me, it would still be useful. I do browse through the library looking for something to read. Especially when i get on the train and look at my current read and don't feel like it. An author list would be an alternate way of doing this.

If they do it, I would expect it to be based on the collection list. On the Glo, this 9 per page with the count.

If someone proposed a search within search results, that would capture my attention.

Always a useful function if it can be implemented properly.

As for the slider, I can't be the only person who remembers how inaccurate it could be? Lifting your finger and having it jump 5 pages? The trick of rolling your finger to give more accurate results?

Yes, but for your binary search, it was handy. And when I was going through the library looking for something to take your fancy, it was a simple tap. I barely had to move my finger. Now, I tend to run my finger along the bottom edge of the screen to turn the library page. I keep expecting it to turn more than one page.