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Old 03-15-2013, 07:02 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by holymadness View Post
Amazon is refraining from engaging in the acts that I mentioned above because they are illegal, not out of the kindness of its heart. Its business practices seem much more similar to Walmart's than to Target's or Costco's, which leads me to believe that it wouldn't hesitate to do less if it could get away with it.
By all means, let's demonize the companies that clearly want to get away with so much more than they're currently able to get away with by law. That would be a much more rational approach... and not frightening in the least.

If the point of this thread is that the world might be a better place if corporations were more invested in the welfare of their employees, then hell... I'm in. Bring on the renaissance! But I thought it was about whether or not Amazon should be singled out for particularly atrocious working conditions. If so, I've yet to see/read/hear any compelling evidence to that effect.
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Old 03-15-2013, 10:41 PM   #92
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Obviously.
They seem to expect companies to work for the employees instead of the employees working for the company.

The idea that the entry-level job pays as it does because the job doesn't *justify* higher pay doesn't seem to register. Or the idea that if the pay for manual labor were much higher it would only make alternative practices or locations (like robots or african labor + air shipment) more viable.

If you rely on state definition and enforcement of accepted labor practices, do *not* be surprised to see companies adhering to *exactly* what the state stipulates.

Anything else *is* utopianism.

"Come the revolution, we will have strawberry pie every day."
I have noticed that defenders of the status quo like to think of themselves as hard-nosed realists. On the contrary, they seem to me naïvely Panglossian, believing that all is for the best in this best of all possible worlds.
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By all means, let's demonize the companies that clearly want to get away with so much more than they're currently able to get away with by law. That would be a much more rational approach... and not frightening in the least.

If the point of this thread is that the world might be a better place if corporations were more invested in the welfare of their employees, then hell... I'm in. Bring on the renaissance! But I thought it was about whether or not Amazon should be singled out for particularly atrocious working conditions. If so, I've yet to see/read/hear any compelling evidence to that effect.
You are right, of course, but it is a rather feeble defence to claim that none should be taken to account when all are equally guilty.
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Old 03-15-2013, 11:15 PM   #93
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Your windmill awaits, Mr. Quixote.
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Old 03-15-2013, 11:40 PM   #94
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Or the idea that if the pay for manual labor were much higher it would only make alternative practices or locations (like robots or african labor + air shipment) more viable.
As for Africa, google:

Africa is booming

Impoverished African nations need to go through the same economic development as impoverished nations anywhere. I'd love to buy more goods made in Africa.

As for robots, there are good jobs fixing them, and better jobs deploying them. I read that Foxconn is planning on US factories. I expect them to be highly automated. That's fine. Warehouse workers aren't the only employed people in the current bad economy. There also are engineers in need of jobs.

But there still will be manual workers. Some companies will take the Trader Joe's/Wegman's/Overstock.com approach of careful hiring and treating those people well in order to get high productivity. Other companies like Amazon will take more of a race to the bottom approach.

Amazon's profits are not impressive, even for a discounter. We don't know how their warehouse labor costs per unit of output compare to well-managed companies with higher employee satisfaction. My guess is that Amazon's controversial warehouse practices are a little due to the nature of warehouse work, but more due to mismanagement. I realize others feel it is the opposite, and there is no way for us to prove it one way or the other.
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Old 03-15-2013, 11:51 PM   #95
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I see, so all the Amazon is evilbecause they use temp workers buy from local stores and only stuff that is made in first world countries with the right set of employment laws?

If people were truely interested in supporting companies that had optimal labor practices, Amazon would not exist. Costco, Target, Walmart, Amazon, BN all exist because people want to pay less. They don't want to pay for other peoples benefits and 401 K. They want to save for their retirement and buy more stuff.

Is it ideal? No. That is why I don't bitch about the taxes I pay. They provide services for others that I am forunate to have. That is why I want educational reform that provides kids who don't want to go tocollege training in fields they are interested in so they can get good jobs when the leave schools.

I have those benefits because my skills are in demand. If my company didn't offer those benefits, I would work for someone else who did.
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Old 03-15-2013, 11:53 PM   #96
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Your windmill awaits, Mr. Quixote.
I will never understand the pride of thumb-twiddlers. And it's Sir Quixote.
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As for Africa, google:

Africa is booming

Impoverished African nations need to go through the same economic development as impoverished nations anywhere. I'd love to buy more goods made in Africa.

As for robots, there are good jobs fixing them, and better jobs deploying them. I read that Foxconn is planning on US factories. I expect them to be highly automated. That's fine. Warehouse workers aren't the only employed people in the current bad economy. There also are engineers in need of jobs.

But there still will be manual workers. Some companies will take the Trader Joe's/Wegman's/Overstock.com approach of careful hiring and treating those people well in order to get high productivity. Other companies like Amazon will take more of a race to the bottom approach.

Amazon's profits are not impressive, even for a discounter. We don't know how their warehouse labor costs per unit of output compare to well-managed companies with higher employee satisfaction. My guess is that Amazon's controversial warehouse practices are a little due to the nature of warehouse work, but more due to mismanagement. I realize others feel it is the opposite, and there is no way for us to prove it one way or the other.
Well said. I should add to your list of economic inefficiencies the enormous financial burden imposed by high employee turnover.
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Old 03-16-2013, 09:08 AM   #97
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Amazon has been opening new warehouses in the US and across the globe. They have added a bunch of new country specific web sites. They are investing in their growth.
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Old 03-16-2013, 11:19 AM   #98
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So Amazon contributes nothing towards their minimum-wage contract employees' pensions at the moment, nor will they in the future. They're really good at avoiding tax, too.
Amazon pays the contracted Agency (probably about 2-300%) of the workers pay rate.

The Agency provides employee administration (Payroll (checks), Payroll TAXES, HR, and other benefits (varies widely by contract).

Besides seasonal peaking, Contract employees allow companies to get around (USA) laws that require the SAME benefits to EMPLOYEES doing the SAME JOB. The Employee may get 3 weeks vacation, full medical. The contract worker at the next desk, zip (Well they do get a pay check that they may not otherwise get.).
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Old 03-16-2013, 11:37 AM   #99
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You must not have ever worked in the Food Services Industry. When a restaurant slows down they start cutting staff immediately. Every business I know sends employees home if business turns slow. The good ones will ask who wants to take off early and if not enough volunteer, they make an arbitrary decision.
Apache
I see you have worked in the real world

California has a law that you must be paid for at least 1/2 of your scheduled HOURS if you have reported to work. A don't come in call before shift start equals No Pay required. (Remember, many California commutes are over 50 miles. A short shift can cause you spend more getting to work than you made on the short shift).

The construction industry has Weather related 'early shift end' that is excluded from the paid minimum. (The General loves it when that happens and there happens to be a materials shortage that would have otherwise required at least 1/2 pay.)
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Old 03-16-2013, 12:51 PM   #100
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Most companies steal from their employees by not recognising their legal and human rights. Employees get their back by performing not more than the minimum they can get away with. This is a vicious circle. Loss of quality makes customers suffer, loss of productivity makes products more expensive, everybody loses out in the end. I have managed people and I know for sure that you can keep your workers focused on customer only by treating them well. Treat them bad and they withdraw into focusing on themselves, their misery, their slavish conditions and boredom. Customer disappears in all this discontent. Managers are short-sited when it comes to treating their staff right. I had to give up my manager's position because I could not be nasty to the people who did so much for me. Breaking of several productivity records could not convince my bosses that empathy and soft skills can work wonders. I was told that I did not keep suitable distance from staff and did not behave like managers. I was told that "they" (my staff) would stitch me up one day. I was, eventually, "stitched up" by my fellow managers and chose to quietly move sideways in a non-managerial position.

Amazon don't pay tax, they don't treat their staff right. What do they do with their money then? I am waiting the delivery of our second Kobo. Slowly trying to wean our family off Amazon as they are not a nice company. Everybody pays the price for the bad conditions in a workplace. The directors and shareholders who profit from this evil are thieves because they make profit at the cost of everybody else's loss. Treat your staff well, keep the workplace environment pleasant, keep customer in the focus, emphasise the importance of quality and customer service and everybody will perform and those who don't perform, will be forced by their own peers to move on and leave. I have seen this happening with my own eyes. 99% of managers I worked with/ for were/ are not fit for the job. Working conditions mean a lot and everybody pays the price of bad work practices. This is what Gary Hamel calls 'Management Tax', the biggest drain on industry and society's resources:
http://hbr.org/2011/12/first-lets-fi...-managers/ar/1

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Old 03-16-2013, 01:15 PM   #101
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Seriously, what "bad" conditions? Maybe I've just been stuck in dead-end jobs working for ass-hats all my life, because I'm simply not seeing the "bad" conditions people keep referring to here.
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Old 03-16-2013, 02:53 PM   #102
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I have not heard reports that Amazon has failed to pay overtime or lied about peoples hours or encouraged sexual harrassment or had in place overt geder and racial discrimination programs. But there are plenty of reports that warehouses are run in a place to save as much money as possible at the expense of the employee.

Amazon has been hit with at least warnings for conditions in warehouses in the US. They have had little to no air conditioning during summer shifts in places to the point that people were passing out from heat exhaustion. The managers of the warehouses in question knew there was a problem because they had ambulances waiting to take people to the hospital.

It sounds like they are giving people poor equipment in the Scottish warehouse. It was specifically mentioned that the steel toed boots that were mandated due to some of the objects in the warehouse did not fit employees which I am guessing is a safety violation. They were giving people blisters and all sorts of foot problems.

These are things that should be corrected and the managers and higher staff at those facilities should be fired. Using temp employees for positions is not a problem in my opinion. I didn't complain when I worked temp shifts at retail shops when I was home on vacation during college. I received more then minimum wage, mainly because I worked at the same store for 7 years, but I did not get vacation days or sick days or retirement benefits or any health benefits. I worked 30-40 hours a week but if there was little work, I could be sent home. That was the job.

I knew it when I was hired and had no problem with it. I was working on a college degree so that I could work in a different type of job market or management in retail if I ended up in retail. If I were to lose my job today and could not find another similar job, I would look at working such a job again because it is important to me to keep food on the table and put my son through college.

It is not my first choice (or my second or third) but that is life. You deal with what you have to deal with. There are many ways to avoid working such jobs, people in the US and Europe have choices. There are job training programs. There are free public schools for people to attend to get degrees. There are subsidized community colleges and universities. There are union supported trade programs. We do need more votech programs at high schools and community colleges for peope to learn plumbing, electrical work, line work, carpentry and the like. There are openings in many of those fields, they pay well, and you can fnd jobs that provide benefits in those areas.

Should Amazon treat their employees better? Yes. There are things they can do and should do. Do the people who are working for Amazon as temps who have other choices? Yes. Might it be a difficult/challenging for them to use those options? Yes but they are available.
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Old 03-16-2013, 05:15 PM   #103
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Capitalism works by extracting the surplus value of the labour of the proletariat - folk get paid less than their work is worth. It's not nice, but I don't see anyone seriously challenging it as a way of organising the party. Given that, I don't think Amazon are the worst employers in the world - though they are pretty sneaky at avoiding their tax liabilities it appears.
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Old 03-16-2013, 05:38 PM   #104
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Given that, I don't think Amazon are the worst ...
Spot the difference:

Housing Works Bookstore, New York, NY

Spoiler:

Amazon, Rugeley, UK

Spoiler:
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Old 03-16-2013, 05:43 PM   #105
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I have not heard reports that Amazon has failed to pay overtime or lied about peoples hours or encouraged sexual harrassment or had in place overt geder and racial discrimination programs.
So far, nobody has accused *them* of conspiring with other tech industry players to refuse to hire each other's employees. The list of the ones who *have* been accused (and settled with the DOJ) includes many of the top players in SiliValley.

They *are* cheap.
And one way they save money is staying (barely) on the safe side of labor laws.
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