DR800S: Reasons for PDF-Zoom function (was: ePub bug?)

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

I understand what you're saying. My point is that the type of documents that are in need of zooming/panning are not what they intend to be a primary use of the DR800. Spreadsheets (whether or not they're printed to a PDF) are probably not something that they view a "casual reading device" should be concerned with.

That may be so, but I have a number non-fiction books with lots of pictures in them. They do not reflow well at all, it is a mess. Besides, the way I am looking at it, the interested parties (including me) do not even consider buying the DR 1000. It is either Irex "upgrades" the DR 800, drops the price of the DR 1000 by 30%, or we will be looking for another solution. Even then I would prefer the overall size of the DR 800.

And given the fact that the Iliad had all the requested (and expected) features, and more, it seems illogical.

The business model "professional" vs "consumer" reader is dead. At least at the USD 850 price point, now that the Plastic Logic comes out.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by HansTWN

That may be so, but I have a number non-fiction books with lots of pictures in them. They do not reflow well at all, it is a mess. Besides, the way I am looking at it, the interested parties (including me) do not even consider buying the DR 1000. It is either Irex "upgrades" the DR 800, drops the price of the DR 1000 by 30%, or we will be looking for another solution. Even then I would prefer the overall size of the DR 800.

I'm hoping what will happen is that iRex gets enough feedback from potential DR800 customers who are interested in this feature that they reconsider adding it.

And given the fact that the Iliad had all the requested (and expected) features, and more, it seems illogical.

I wouldn't necessarily compare the DR800 with the iLiad, even though they have the same screen size. I view them as being completely different generations of devices. Personally, I would compare the DR800 vs the DR1000.

The business model "professional" vs "consumer" reader is dead. At least at the USD 850 price point, now that the Plastic Logic comes out.

We'll see what they ultimately decide. My impression is that this is the business model they are currently using, but I don't really have anymore insight into that than you do. I'm just going off of comments they've made in the forums.

[TGS]

Originally Posted by Matthijs

BTW: what is your use-case for zooming?
If you're reading books, reflow will work much nicer than zoom.

I would hope it's not a question of either/or. From what I understand reflow works very nicely for text, perhaps the standard ebook novel for example. However I have access to, and need to use, a fair number of oldish academic articles in PDF format and these are scanned as images. As far as I understand it, (which admittedly isn't very far), the only way for me to view these is by being able to zoom. Also, what is the situation with regard to PDFs that have diagrams or tables? Can these be reflowed and still be legible which I understand is not a problem for zooming.

[Iñigo]

I would add more use cases where reflow doesn't work.

I've subscribed to some linux and coding magazines I receive in pdf format, nothing very complex or over-designed, I don't think reflow works for them.

On the other hand, I don't know reflow limitations, but I'm bit afraid of poetry books with some special format.

Originally Posted by Shaggy

I understand what you're saying. My point is that the type of documents that are in need of zooming/panning are not what they intend to be a primary use of the DR800. Spreadsheets (whether or not they're printed to a PDF) are probably not something that they view a "casual reading device" should be concerned with.

Well, my "casual" readings include technical books, narrative, poetry, manuals or magazines... I don't want the device to decide what to read for me in each moment. I carry different kind of contents on my Iliad because I read some things or others depending on my mood.
For me, it has no sense at all to limit the target of a product when it could be universal. Let people decide what they want to do with it.

[Off-topic-ally, this discussion makes me remember some years ago when some people said linux was only for servers... Time has proved Linux can be used for servers of different sizes, for desktops, for mobiles, for microcontrollers... for everything anyone want to use it.]

Am I a special "power" user for ereaders? well, maybe... but everybody is a power user for some kind of use, don't cap your target market.
Could I read history books with detailed maps? or could I read chess books?... and so on...

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by Iñigo

Well, my "casual" readings include technical books, narrative, poetry, manuals or magazines...

Those are great examples, particularly poetry and magazines. Those sound like things that people inside their target market would want. I would also think that newspapers (outside of the PressReader app) could be effected by this as well.

I'm certainly not against the idea of them adding zoom, pesonally I hope they do. But I think it would help influence them more if we could concentrate on things that are not business/technical, but are more "casual reader" uses. That's just my suggestion. I think the ideas you had were good ones.

[Mr. Goodbar]

A previous poster brought up history books with maps. I never really thought about the history and general science reading I do that could benefit from a zoom feature for the images, tables and maps. This is not text book reading, but general non-fiction works that have this type of content to emphasize and add to the understanding of the material. Definitely content that would fit into the general consumer reader segment.

You need to make sure you don't equate consumer to fiction. I would agree that for a lot of fiction zooming isn't important. However, history, science and I'm sure other non-fiction related reading targeted at the general public could greatly benefit from this feature.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by Mr. Goodbar

You need to make sure you don't equate consumer to fiction.

True, there is a bit of a fuzzy line between consumer and professional. I just think that the more example we can come up with that are outside of the professional/technical area, the better it would be towards convincing them.

[cmdahler]

Originally Posted by Matthijs

BTW: what is your use-case for zooming?
If you're reading books, reflow will work much nicer than zoom.

It is utterly astonishing to me, and completely indicative of how out-of-touch this company is with even the most basic needs of the potential consumer of their product, that you would even have to ask. Has it really, honestly, truly never occurred to anyone up there even once that someone purchasing a large-screen reader might (*gasp*) want to try to read a PDF on it that might not have been specifically formatted for your screen? I mean, all throughout school, we always hear, "Remember, there are no stupid questions!" Um, you know, I do believe I have now heard one.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by cmdahler

Has it really, honestly, truly never occurred to anyone up there even once that someone purchasing a large-screen reader might (*gasp*) want to try to read a PDF on it that might not have been specifically formatted for your screen?

Of course it has, but that's not the question.

The question here is that when you do get PDFs that are not formatted for the screen, how do you solve it. The option that they are already including is reflow. The question they are asking is what are examples of cases where reflow will not work and zoom is needed.

[Xenophon]

Reflow fails for PDFs (even fiction!) where the first letter of each chapter is a fancy drop cap. You get all of the text of the chapter except the first letter, followed by the drop-cap at the end.

Reflow as I have seen it on my Sony Reader, at least, insists on breaking at each page-end in the pdf. So what I get is 1.3 pages, .7 of a blank page, etc. This wastes 1/3 of my battery while I'm reading. And I read a lot, so this means recharging days sooner than if it didn't do this.

Reflow fails utterly for any non-fiction that involves tables, maps, images, etc. Think history, economics and public policy, popular science books, cookbooks(!!) and many other examples. All non-professional reading, too.

Please, at a bare minimum, give us at least automatic zoom-away-the-white-space-margins.

Xenophon

[wallcraft]

Originally Posted by Xenophon

Please, at a bare minimum, give us at least automatic zoom-away-the-white-space-margins.

Plus a landscape mode (currently the landscape non-reflow mode shows a tiny page because it is fitting the entire page on the screen). This is exactly what the Kindle DX has, and it is sufficient for a 9.7" screen. It isn't optimal for an 8.1" screen, but it better than nothing.

Note that the standard UDS PDF plugin can't zoom on the DR800S, but perhaps it could be made to autocrop - see DR800 sources posted.

[cmdahler]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

Of course it has, but that's not the question.

The question here is that when you do get PDFs that are not formatted for the screen, how do you solve it. The option that they are already including is reflow. The question they are asking is what are examples of cases where reflow will not work and zoom is needed.

And again: it is completely astonishing that they were not able to think of any reasons on their own why people would need zoom versus reflow. These are people in the business of producing products meant to replace paper. Did the whole concept of scientific papers and other diagram-intensive or format-sensitive papers that do not respond well (if at all) to PDF-reflow just never even occur to them? It's beyond astonishing, really, it's well into the realm of pathetic. Not providing PDF zoom on a 6" reader is one thing. I could even see not providing it on a large-size screen reader as just a boneheaded oversight in the first production run, but then to actually have to ask people why they would want PDF zoom as though they just couldn't fathom anyone needing such a thing is just plain stupid.

[Mr. Goodbar]

Originally Posted by cmdahler

And again: it is completely astonishing that they were not able to think of any reasons on their own why people would need zoom versus reflow. These are people in the business of producing products meant to replace paper. Did the whole concept of scientific papers and other diagram-intensive or format-sensitive papers that do not respond well (if at all) to PDF-reflow just never even occur to them? It's beyond astonishing, really, it's well into the realm of pathetic. Not providing PDF zoom on a 6" reader is one thing. I could even see not providing it on a large-size screen reader as just a boneheaded oversight in the first production run, but then to actually have to ask people why they would want PDF zoom as though they just couldn't fathom anyone needing such a thing is just plain stupid.

I really doubt that they couldn't think of it on their own, but it may not have hit high enough on their use case models to justify it. It's been said before, but the person who comes to Mobile Read is far from the average user. If they expect 90% of their users to do nothing but buy books or newspapers directly over the device than in their eyes it might not be a big issue. I think the thread has rightfully pointed out a number of scenarios where an average user would find this beneficial so hopefully it is something they will add.

[The Straven]

I admit that I only used zoom on the iLiad for professional reading, but here's a couple of cases I can see myself wanting a real zoom for in casual use:

1. reading comics, particularly when viewing a two-page layout that I don't wish to actually split into two logical pages

2. looking at charts and tables in a role-playing game PDF, since most of them are letter size

This thread isn't about annotations, but I've used annotations extensively when proofreading book files for later correction. It's such a useful feature.

... I'm going to hijack this thread a little. In all honesty, if I had to pick I would choose to see annotations implemented before zoom. I'll tell you what, the first company to provide a M$ OneNote-like application for note-taking on e-ink is going to be a heavy-hitter, professional or casual audience. The DR family could be a contender.

- James

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by cmdahler

Did the whole concept of scientific papers and other diagram-intensive or format-sensitive papers that do not respond well (if at all) to PDF-reflow just never even occur to them?

Again, of course that occurred to them. They are already supporting it on their upper level device. The question is whether there is enough demand for it on the lower level device as well. It's not a technical problem, or a question of them able to form requirements. I'm sure they understand those issues a lot better than you want to give them credit for.

It's a business decision on the justification regarding what features they support on the lower level device and how many sales that will take away from the upper level one.