Will Digital Books Stagnate?

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by conan50

The .lit format did go extinct, so the idea of file types dying out is not unheard of
http://the-digital-reader.com/2011/0...-ebook-format/
I suspect Amazon will kill Mobi at some point. If a company owns a file format, they can kill it at will.

Absolutely not! The same way Microsoft couldn't kill LIT, Amazon can't kill MOBI.

At least one FLOSS software still understands LIT -- calibre.
All LIT books are still perfectly usable (unless they have DRM, which is a separate issue altogether).

While it is true no one bothers with LIT these days, that is because it died from lack of use. Not because Microsoft killed it.


Amazon can't kill MOBI. They can only stop using it themselves, and even if everyone else goes along with them (not guaranteed) it is still irrelevant, as everyone will simply convert their MOBIs to the next format.


The only reason why "killing" a format, or letting it go "extinct", would have any meaning or relevance, is if you are afraid the contents will remain locked inside those files.
And that is the one thing that won't happen, no matter what.

Yet I think Epub will have a long life as an open file type.

Is that because they enjoy the sterling support of Apple and Kobo?

Whatever. This can't just go away, I guess.
Your ebooks are not any safer because they are in EPUB.

Perhaps in a perfect world all ebooks would be drm-free plain text files that the reader could format to their own pleasure with options or templates within their e-reading software.

That is a positively terrifying, horrible idea.

Plaintext files by definition cannot possibly be formatted, with options or templates or anything.
As soon as you add any information that allows you to apply a template or any sort of options (other than a base font and font size for 100% homogenized text), you have magically transmuted it into rich text!
And once you are using rich text, you might as well package it in e.g. a ZIP folder, at which point you have an "EPUB".

This has already been exhaustively discussed here: https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...=243326&page=7
If you like, you can continue that conversation, there.

[Purple Lady]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

Quick note on p vs e.
Some books are better as paper.
Technical books, some craft books. Especially those with picture patterns.
Other books are great as ebooks.
I don't think either are going anywhere in our lifetime.
Cookbooks need a working table of contents to be really useful on an ereader.

What kind of cookbooks do you get that don't have a working TOC? I have both free and purchased ones that have a TOC. My problem is with Kindle Cookbooks. I have one from Amazon that has an index with clickable page numbers and also clickable page numbers in recipes. The problem is the Kindle app no longer lets you go back to where you were before you clicked. Completely unusable, and a few years back it did work.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by Purple Lady

What kind of cookbooks do you get that don't have a working TOC? I have both free and purchased ones that have a TOC. My problem is with Kindle Cookbooks. I have one from Amazon that has an index with clickable page numbers and also clickable page numbers in recipes. The problem is the Kindle app no longer lets you go back to where you were before you clicked. Completely unusable, and a few years back it did work.

I have run across many self-published cookbooks that have no table of contents.
Also sometimes what works in the k4pc doesn't translate well to an ereader.
Note most of those were picked up on free day.

[tomsem]

Originally Posted by Purple Lady

What kind of cookbooks do you get that don't have a working TOC? I have both free and purchased ones that have a TOC. My problem is with Kindle Cookbooks. I have one from Amazon that has an index with clickable page numbers and also clickable page numbers in recipes. The problem is the Kindle app no longer lets you go back to where you were before you clicked. Completely unusable, and a few years back it did work.

They changed it: you need to tap on the little dots on the reading progress indicator that indicate 2 or 3 'previous reading positions'. But it doesn't always have the required granularity.

I would suggest setting bookmarks for your favorites, and using the bookmark list to navigate. These are far more useful for navigation than they used to be.

[theducks]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Is there a serious danger that calibre will drop off the face of the planet?

...

There are several different tools available for converting between formats, I highly doubt that your ebooks of whatever format are going anywhere.

No, but developers retire AND
the OS might change so it no longer functions

Let us face it.
The Garden builders are actively shoring up the walls to prevent stray conversion infestations.

Stuff happens, which is why DRM is bad.

I just went to contact the publisher of a Audio splitting package that I bought a (lifetime) license for., to allow installation on a new computer.

They dropped off the face of the earth It isn't the money. I liked the way it worked (lots easier than Audacity).

[conan50]

Eschwartz, We have already seen changes at B&N that deny access to ebooks. To say there is no danger to locked in systems is hyperbole, the very thing you seem to be implying about my post.

[Purple Lady]

Originally Posted by tomsem

They changed it: you need to tap on the little dots on the reading progress indicator that indicate 2 or 3 'previous reading positions'. But it doesn't always have the required granularity.

I would suggest setting bookmarks for your favorites, and using the bookmark list to navigate. These are far more useful for navigation than they used to be.

Thank you! How did you figure that out? It used to be just tapping the back button took you to the previous spot. But it could also be a pain if you went to four or five different spots and just wanted to exit the book.

Bookmarks won't work too well for my general use in a cookbook when just browsing through. The recipes tell you to use a certain spice mix and have a link to it, and I just want to look at it and come right back.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by theducks

No, but developers retire AND
the OS might change so it no longer functions

Let us face it.
The Garden builders are actively shoring up the walls to prevent stray conversion infestations.

Stuff happens, which is why DRM is bad.

I just went to contact the publisher of a Audio splitting package that I bought a (lifetime) license for., to allow installation on a new computer.

They dropped off the face of the earth It isn't the money. I liked the way it worked (lots easier than Audacity).

Luckily, calibre is open source.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by conan50

Eschwartz, We have already seen changes at B&N that deny access to ebooks. To say there is no danger to locked in systems is hyperbole, the very thing you seem to be implying about my post.

Will you please make up your mind whether you are what-ifing about

• lockdown in vendor distribution systems
• file formats going obsolete

The first is a problem, although since you back up your books (right? ) the worst that can happen is you can no longer buy new books.

The second is pure, unadulterated FUD. We the users already made off with the keys. We own (pwn) the format. There is nothing Amazon can do about it unless they team up with mind-probing aliens (or gov'ts ).



B&N has not been able to deny anyone access to their books, ever, in any way, shape or form, to date -- unless that person was depending on the ability to continue downloading DRMed books from B&N's servers (and sideload it using ADE-slash-whatever).

And that doesn't even take maliciousness. People have lost their ebooks when stores went out of business, without any malice on the store's part.

[AnotherCat]

Generally agree with what you have been saying and just a little aside regarding your

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Absolutely not! The same way Microsoft couldn't kill LIT, Amazon can't kill MOBI.

At least one FLOSS software still understands LIT -- calibre.
All LIT books are still perfectly usable (unless they have DRM, which is a separate issue altogether).

While it is true no one bothers with LIT these days, that is because it died from lack of use. Not because Microsoft killed it...etc., etc.

Despite the claim to the contrary in the link given to us by conan50 in their earlier post, Microsoft Reader is even still available from Microsoft itself in the Microsoft Download Center (and still works with Windows 10).

As I occasionally "bother" LIT files I must object to being referred to as a "no one" .

[eschwartz]

Okay, sorry.

Mostly no one, but occasionally they (LIT files) find the odd use. It's just statistically speaking unnoticeable.


(Don't be so offended -- you could easily get a job fighting cyclopes. )

[AnotherCat]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

(Don't be so offended -- you could easily get a job fighting cyclopes. )

Fighting Cyclops of the protozoan pond water variety I think I may be able to manage. Any such jobs going?

[conan50]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Will you please make up your mind whether you are what-ifing about

• lockdown in vendor distribution systems
• file formats going obsolete

The first is a problem, although since you back up your books (right? ) the worst that can happen is you can no longer buy new books.

The second is pure, unadulterated FUD. We the users already made off with the keys. We own (pwn) the format. There is nothing Amazon can do about it unless they team up with mind-probing aliens (or gov'ts ).



B&N has not been able to deny anyone access to their books, ever, in any way, shape or form, to date -- unless that person was depending on the ability to continue downloading DRMed books from B&N's servers (and sideload it using ADE-slash-whatever).

And that doesn't even take maliciousness. People have lost their ebooks when stores went out of business, without any malice on the store's part.

Both
I have already had Kindle books that worked for years on previous generation Kindle devices that when I tried to download them to a Paperwhite the book would not work on it even though it was a Kindle book. I got a refund from Amazon, but the experience taught me that obsolescence can come to any closed, drm-protected format. That was both a locked down, drm protected ebook, and within Amazon's closed system. If I had taken extensive notes, annotations, and highlights with that ebook--those would have been gone.

You mention Calibre is open source, and that is why you are not afraid of it going away. I could say that is the same reason I like Epub and drm-free ebooks.

With Nook, a few years ago I could and did back up my drm-protected ebooks from B&N by simply copying the folder they were in and then pasting it onto my hard drive. You can no longer do that with either their Android app or their ereading devices. And who here is willing to bet money that in a few years, at most, nook will even be around, and perhaps millions of readers be without their ebooks.

You assume that everyone can just use Calibre to set their ebooks free. I assume the average reader is not going to do that, not take the time to learn how to do that, or be afraid of breaking a law to do it.

For the technically inclined, you are right. But your average person who is not on this Forum, and is using a closed system with closed file formats that are drm-protected and will have serious issues when their supplier of choice goes under, and the way things are going, Amazon will probably be the last man standing, and as I just pointed out, even with Amazon it is no guarantee your ebooks will not become obsolete in a few years when they change devices and software.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by conan50

Both For the technically inclined, you are right. But your average person who is not on this Forum, and is using a closed system with closed file formats that are drm-protected and will have serious issues when their supplier of choice goes under,

I'm afraid the average user won't have any serious issues either. Because the average user isn't worried about saving ebooks for future re-reads. It's surprising, I know, to discover that many people read books and never look back, but it's true. Most ebook buyers are not "collectors" who obsess over the availability of their library. Most just move on to the next ebook. Their supplier of choice "going under" is only likely to affect their next purchase, not their old ones.

[conan50]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I'm afraid the average user won't have any serious issues either. Because the average user isn't worried about saving ebooks for future re-reads. It's surprising, I know, to discover that many people read books and never look back, but it's true. Most ebook buyers are not "collectors" who obsess over the availability of their library. Most just move on to the next ebook. Their supplier of choice "going under" is only likely to affect their next purchase, not their old ones.

You could be right. I suspect people will be both surprised and very unhappy if they find one day their purchased ebooks are gone. I also suspect we are going to find this out in the next few years.