Amazon uses DMCA to restrict where you can buy e-books - Page 11

jj2me · 03-12-2009, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NatCh

But what they're aggressively defending here is not their DRM, but their DRM's effectiveness in locking Kindle owners into buying books only from Amazon.

The way you put it makes it seem like the razor-and-blades model of selling. So why is the razor still $359! Gimme one for $10 please.

Moejoe · 03-12-2009, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jj2me

The way you put it makes it seem like the razor-and-blades model of selling. So why is the razor still $359! Gimme one for $10 please.

Imagine if it was $10 and they released it worldwide at the same time instead of all this messing about with whispernet in only one country and exclusive deals here and there? I'd bet you a penny to a shiny new dollar that you'd have mass-adoption in a couple of weeks, and the sales of ebooks would go through the roof. Sometimes these companies baffle me, it's like they don't want to make money.

tompe · 03-12-2009, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TadW

This all very much reminds me of the discussion we had just yesterday on the kindlepid/fix scripts:

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41649

The tool by itself doesn't do anything to break DRM. On the contrary, it can be used for my Kindle to purchase books protected with DRM. On the other hand, some argue that because this tool spills out a PID number and because this number could be used with help of other tools to remove DRM, it is, in effect, also evil.

Well, as I argued in the thread referenced I still think that kindlefix is a cirumvention of DRM but I really have no idea if this is a legally problematic or legally allowed circumvention. kindlepid I do not see any problem with.

Patricia · 03-12-2009, 08:06 PM

I am thinking of writing to Amazon to tell them that they are being very short-sighted.
Which email address would be the best choice?

slayda · 03-12-2009, 08:16 PM

RobertB, Are you reading this thread?

Edit:
There's always the EZ Reader = BeBook = Hanlin V3

to replace the DMCAed Kindles.

Boston · 03-12-2009, 08:57 PM

While a consequence is that it is now more difficult for Kindle owners to read DRMd mobi books from other sources, it seems to me that the real motivation for taking this action is to prevent iPod owners who aren't legally entitle to purchase from the Amazon store from doing so.

The existence of these tools has been no secret from Amazon. There were posts about people now having access to using the store when they opened it up iPhone access. At the same time, a new scripts was developed to take advantage of this and Amazon soon took steps to try and hide the serial numbers. I think the timing is not coincidental.

Amazon's strength is its store that its been able to build because of its strong relationship with the publishers. A price is that they need to make the publishers feel comfortable that the industries regional distribution rights are being upheld.

I think Amazon is more interested in keeping the publishers happy than going after its customers. While this move doesn't make me happy (and would make me think twice about my next reader), I think that the motivation might/could be a little different than what it appears.

catsittingstill · 03-12-2009, 09:16 PM

? I thought the program in question made it possible to put DRMed Mobipocket books on Kindle? Not to use Kindle books on anything else? So I don't see how they could be worried about people buying Kindle books and reading them on non-Kindles.

Maybe I'm just confused...

wallcraft · 03-12-2009, 09:41 PM

It really isn't clear what Amazon thinks the problem is.

The undoubtedly legal use of KindlePID is to register the Kindle or iPhone with OverDrive and read lending library or purchased MOBI ebooks using Kindle software (after running them through KindleFIX). I say "undoubtedly legal" in the sense of legal from the ebook copyright holders point of view (OverDrive is the agent of the copyright holder, and they very definitely have approved the use of the Kindle or the iPhone because they accepted the PID). Amazon seems to think that software that displays ebooks also has "rights" under the DMCA, even if there is no copyright owner in the loop. Or perhaps they are just ignoring the legal use of the software because they don't like its other (perhaps less legal) uses.

It does seem that the iPhone version set this all off, and it may be that the problem is that millions of iPhone owners can now buy Kindle Store ebooks and with the PID from KindlePID these can be converted to DRM-free MOBIs using mobidedrm. KindlePID does not remove the DRM, but without KindlePID mobidedrm can't do its job (since, unlike with MobiPocket software, there is never a need for the reader to know the PID). Secret keys can be part of a DRM scheme (and the impossibility of keeping them secret is one reason why DRM does not work), so perhaps Amazon has a point.

I think it is likely that the OverDrive use of KindlePID makes it completely legal, i.e. it does not mater if there is an infringing use if there is also a substantial non-infringing use. It is scandalous that Amazon does not officially allow lending library ebooks on the Kindle, and this will become widely known if Amazon ever sues someone over KindlePID. This would be a public relations disaster for them, but companies have done worse things against their own interests in the past.

Boston · 03-12-2009, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wallcraft

It does seem that the iPhone version set this all off, and it may be that the problem is that millions of iPhone owners can now buy Kindle Store ebooks and with the PID from KindlePID these can be converted to DRM-free MOBIs using mobidedrm. KindlePID does not remove the DRM, but without KindlePID mobidedrm can't do its job (since, unlike with MobiPocket software, there is never a need for the reader to know the PID). Secret keys can be part of a DRM scheme (and the impossibility of keeping them secret is one reason why DRM does not work), so perhaps Amazon has a point.

Yes, that is what I was trying to say.

There are other consequences to those of us who used the PID for other reasons (such as the ability to borrow books from the library) but I am not convinced it was the root cause for their action (or it would have been done much sooner).

I agree, it would be a PR disaster if they started going after Kindle customers for contents from other sources. So much so that I am not worried about Amazon seeing what is on my Kindle.

larisa0001 · 03-12-2009, 09:52 PM

I wonder if the EFF will be interested in this; the takedown notice does look a bit fishy to me (though I am not a lawyer yet). Surely some enterprising EFF attorney will want to analyze this issue for you. I haven't done the legal research on what constitutes "circumvention of a technological measure" as per the DMCA, nor do I have time to do so, but I'm sure the matter is ripe for a challenge.

Mikou · 03-12-2009, 09:58 PM

No matter the technological conveniences, this solidifies my decision to stay away from Kindle

AnemicOak · 03-12-2009, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patricia

I am thinking of writing to Amazon to tell them that they are being very short-sighted.
Which email address would be the best choice?

jeff@amazon.com

Send him a link to this thread too.

Moejoe · 03-12-2009, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnemicOak

jeff@amazon.com

Send him a link to this thread too.

Dear Jeff,

What's up? Are you insane?

Yours

The Internets

Something like that?

lilac_jive · 03-12-2009, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moejoe

Dear Jeff,

What's up? Are you insane?

Yours

The Internets

Something like that?

Also, someone should send this to consumerist.com. They're awesome for this kind of stuff.

Nate the great · 03-12-2009, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lilac_jive

Also, someone should send this to consumerist.com. They're awesome for this kind of stuff.

I did.

03-12-2009, 08:16 PM	#155
slayda Retired & reading more! Posts: 2,764 Karma: 1884247 Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: North Alabama, USA Device: Kindle 1, iPad Air 2, iPhone 6S+, Kobo Aura One	RobertB, Are you reading this thread? Edit: There's always the EZ Reader = BeBook = Hanlin V3 to replace the DMCAed Kindles. Last edited by slayda; 03-12-2009 at 08:25 PM.

03-12-2009, 08:57 PM	#156
Boston Fanatic Posts: 555 Karma: 40032 Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Boston :) Device: Kindle, Kobo Aura H20, Pixel XL	While a consequence is that it is now more difficult for Kindle owners to read DRMd mobi books from other sources, it seems to me that the real motivation for taking this action is to prevent iPod owners who aren't legally entitle to purchase from the Amazon store from doing so. The existence of these tools has been no secret from Amazon. There were posts about people now having access to using the store when they opened it up iPhone access. At the same time, a new scripts was developed to take advantage of this and Amazon soon took steps to try and hide the serial numbers. I think the timing is not coincidental. Amazon's strength is its store that its been able to build because of its strong relationship with the publishers. A price is that they need to make the publishers feel comfortable that the industries regional distribution rights are being upheld. I think Amazon is more interested in keeping the publishers happy than going after its customers. While this move doesn't make me happy (and would make me think twice about my next reader), I think that the motivation might/could be a little different than what it appears. Last edited by Boston; 03-12-2009 at 09:00 PM.

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03-12-2009, 08:06 PM	#154
Patricia Reader Posts: 11,504 Karma: 8720163 Join Date: May 2007 Location: South Wales, UK Device: Sony PRS-500, PRS-505, Asus EEEpc 4G	I am thinking of writing to Amazon to tell them that they are being very short-sighted. Which email address would be the best choice?

03-12-2009, 09:16 PM	#157
catsittingstill Guru Posts: 643 Karma: 551634 Join Date: Dec 2007 Device: Kindle 1.0.8, iPod Touch, Kindle Keyboard	? I thought the program in question made it possible to put DRMed Mobipocket books on Kindle? Not to use Kindle books on anything else? So I don't see how they could be worried about people buying Kindle books and reading them on non-Kindles. Maybe I'm just confused...

03-12-2009, 09:41 PM	#158
wallcraft reader Posts: 6,975 Karma: 5183568 Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Mississippi, USA Device: Kindle 3, Kobo Glo HD	It really isn't clear what Amazon thinks the problem is. The undoubtedly legal use of KindlePID is to register the Kindle or iPhone with OverDrive and read lending library or purchased MOBI ebooks using Kindle software (after running them through KindleFIX). I say "undoubtedly legal" in the sense of legal from the ebook copyright holders point of view (OverDrive is the agent of the copyright holder, and they very definitely have approved the use of the Kindle or the iPhone because they accepted the PID). Amazon seems to think that software that displays ebooks also has "rights" under the DMCA, even if there is no copyright owner in the loop. Or perhaps they are just ignoring the legal use of the software because they don't like its other (perhaps less legal) uses. It does seem that the iPhone version set this all off, and it may be that the problem is that millions of iPhone owners can now buy Kindle Store ebooks and with the PID from KindlePID these can be converted to DRM-free MOBIs using mobidedrm. KindlePID does not remove the DRM, but without KindlePID mobidedrm can't do its job (since, unlike with MobiPocket software, there is never a need for the reader to know the PID). Secret keys can be part of a DRM scheme (and the impossibility of keeping them secret is one reason why DRM does not work), so perhaps Amazon has a point. I think it is likely that the OverDrive use of KindlePID makes it completely legal, i.e. it does not mater if there is an infringing use if there is also a substantial non-infringing use. It is scandalous that Amazon does not officially allow lending library ebooks on the Kindle, and this will become widely known if Amazon ever sues someone over KindlePID. This would be a public relations disaster for them, but companies have done worse things against their own interests in the past.

03-12-2009, 09:52 PM	#160
larisa0001 Member Posts: 21 Karma: 108 Join Date: Mar 2009 Device: PalmPilot	I wonder if the EFF will be interested in this; the takedown notice does look a bit fishy to me (though I am not a lawyer yet). Surely some enterprising EFF attorney will want to analyze this issue for you. I haven't done the legal research on what constitutes "circumvention of a technological measure" as per the DMCA, nor do I have time to do so, but I'm sure the matter is ripe for a challenge.

03-12-2009, 09:58 PM	#161
Mikou Zealot Posts: 148 Karma: 5052779 Join Date: May 2007 Location: Long Island, NY Device: Kobo Libra, Amazon Fire 10, Kobo Clara, Kobo Aura One	No matter the technological conveniences, this solidifies my decision to stay away from Kindle

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