Excessive profanity in books

[JLeighs]

Part of the reason I am such an avid reader today is because my parents had around 8 bookcases full of good, classic, adult books. There was no objection to my reading most of them at a young age (I started really devouring books when I was around 9 or so) because they were "clean", so to speak. There certainly wasn't much, if any, hardcore profanity, and any sexual subjects were handled in a "not in your face" way. When my daughter was younger (she's 18 now), I would have loved to have allowed her the same freedom with my books that I had as a child, but there was no way in hades I could do that with most current books marketed for adults.

I realize I'm in the minority here, but just some food for thought.

[Seanette]

Originally Posted by TGS

And as an adjunct to that, how far up our list of priorities should be the avoidance of causing offense to other people?

You can't manage to not offend anyone if you're actually living a life, what with all the professional victims around just looking for some "offense" to go around wailing about or use as an excuse for their own problems.

To US readers: just curious, where in our Constitution is a "right" to never be offended actually mentioned? I ask because that "right" seems to be trumping the First Amendment a lot lately (First Amendment covers such niceties as freedom to speak and to hold and express the religious views of one's choice without the government muzzling you, for non-US readers).

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by bjones6416

And this possibly brings up another point in this discussion --what may be terribly offensive to one person may not mean much to another, based on culture and personal experience.

As is evident in the "adult" area of engrish.com:

http://adult.engrish.com/

[brecklundin]

Originally Posted by Seanette

You can't manage to not offend anyone if you're actually living a life, what with all the professional victims around just looking for some "offense" to go around wailing about or use as an excuse for their own problems.

To US readers: just curious, where in our Constitution is a "right" to never be offended actually mentioned? I ask because that "right" seems to be trumping the First Amendment a lot lately (First Amendment covers such niceties as freedom to speak and to hold and express the religious views of one's choice without the government muzzling you, for non-US readers).

best comment of the thread...to those folks...F**K'em...there are more important things in life and the sooner these sanctimonious sorts get off their cross the sooner we can move forward as a society. But as of now we are sliding off into a police state and in no small part due to those your post describes.

That said, the best way these sorts can solve their problem is to not buy the material or return it after purchase rather than forcing their so-called values on everyone else.

[cfrizz]

I 'try' not to swear myself, but I don't care if I read it in books. I certainly have never scanned a book ahead of time & put it back simply because I spotted a swear in it.

I'm not about to start reading ancient books that I'm not interested in, just because I know they were written by people the Puritans would have approved of.

[cfrizz]

Originally Posted by brecklundin

best comment of the thread...to those folks...F**K'em...there are more important things in life and the sooner these sanctimonious sorts get off their cross the sooner we can move forward as a society. But as of now we are sliding off into a police state and in no small part due to those your post describes.

That said, the best way these sorts can solve their problem is to not buy the material or return it after purchase rather than forcing their so-called values on everyone else.

Amen!

[L.J. Sellers]

As a novelist I try to keep it to a minimum, but I write crime fiction so I also have to be realistic. If a meth addict is in a rage, he's going to use the F word, maybe a few times. If someone pulls a gun on my detective protagonist, he's not going to say or think "Darn."
L.J.

[Jack Tingle]

Originally Posted by Seanette

To US readers: just curious, where in our Constitution is a "right" to never be offended actually mentioned?).

There isn't one. It's just that:
"...'obscene' material has no protection under the First Amendment because freedom of expression does not provide absolute protection for every possible utterance of any sort..." Roth v. United States and Alberts v. California

Which, of course, pushes off the decision to "Who decides what's obscene?" In general, if it's political, artistic, scientific, or private speech, it can't be obscene. Only if it's public, and intended to appeal only to prurient interest can it be obscene. Then some court has to decide the specifics, applying "community standards". Clearer now? Good. :{

Regards,
Jack Tingle

[Seanette]

Originally Posted by L.J. Sellers

As a novelist I try to keep it to a minimum, but I write crime fiction so I also have to be realistic. If a meth addict is in a rage, he's going to use the F word, maybe a few times. If someone pulls a gun on my detective protagonist, he's not going to say or think "Darn."
L.J.

I fall into the "realistic for the character and situation can be dealt with" camp, but I'm sure you've met people IRL who are excessively foul-mouthed beyond what can be justified by who they are and what situation they're in. That's about my cutoff for language. If someone's just casually using obscenities as sentence filler or punctuation, that puts me off big-time (and I'm not into fiction with gangsta thugs as main characters, since I find that lifestyle morally objectionable).

I'm quite sure a writer has already found her way to TV Tropes, but other thread readers might be interested in their discussion of Cluster F Bombs, Precision F Strikes, and related topics.

Profanity does lose a lot of impact on the hearer/reader if overdone, which I think a lot of the types I deal with IRL, especially on public transit (which is why my iPod and noise-blocking earphones are a body part when I'm using transit), would do very well to keep in mind, unless they actually do have such pathetically deficient and limited vocabularies that's what they've got (or want everyone around them to think that's the case).

[Seanette]

Originally Posted by Jack Tingle

There isn't one. It's just that:
"...'obscene' material has no protection under the First Amendment because freedom of expression does not provide absolute protection for every possible utterance of any sort..." Roth v. United States and Alberts v. California

Which, of course, pushes off the decision to "Who decides what's obscene?" In general, if it's political, artistic, scientific, or private speech, it can't be obscene. Only if it's public, and intended to appeal only to prurient interest can it be obscene. Then some court has to decide the specifics, applying "community standards". Clearer now? Good. :{

Regards,
Jack Tingle

I'm familiar with the wording myself, but starting to wonder how many "judges" are, what with all the "hate speech" regulations. Sorry, but in a free society, you're going to have to put up with people holding and expressing opinions you don't like. That is, if you're an adult and actually think free speech matters more than your precious widdle ego.

[SameOldStory]

Originally Posted by TGS

And as an adjunct to that, how far up our list of priorities should be the avoidance of causing offense to other people?

Offending other people seems to give some a great deal of pleasure.

But I have to agree, what some find offensive others find joyous.

Take the example of the liberation of Tibet.

Chamdo marks 60th anniversary of liberation




And heaven forbid (pun intended) mentioning religion in front of an atheist! It's like waving a red flag in front of an irritated bull. They literally can't control themselves. They just have to attack. To them the word God is THE most offensive profanity around and they'll go to any length to stamp it out or drive the offender away.

How far can you go with profanity? Does freedom of speech trump all other considerations?

Sure, you can use vulgar and offensive language to a 9 year old boy or girl. That’s just freedom of speech, right?

I'm no stranger to profanity and vulgarity. But I do, at times, try to use tact and judgment. I see no reason to unnecessarily offend most people.

[bjones6416]

Originally Posted by ardeegee

As is evident in the "adult" area of engrish.com:

http://adult.engrish.com/

<wiping tears>

And once again the fact that I have the sense of humor of a 12-year-old has me in hysterical giggles here...

[LDBoblo]

Originally Posted by SameOldStory

And heaven forbid (pun intended) mentioning religion in front of an atheist! It's like waving a red flag in front of an irritated bull. They literally can't control themselves. They just have to attack. To them the word God is THE most offensive profanity around and they'll go to any length to stamp it out or drive the offender away.

I'm [probably] an atheist, and I find God to be a hilarious concept, and would hate to stamp it out or drive it away.

How far can you go with profanity? Does freedom of speech trump all other considerations?

Sure, you can use vulgar and offensive language to a 9 year old boy or girl. That’s just freedom of speech, right?

Do you have this compulsion or sense of justification? I see nothing wrong with using "vulgar" language in front of children, but I don't feel compelled to use it, as it's a bit wasted on those who can't appreciate the nuances.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by TGS

Quite frankly that's boll***s - the words you are referring to as profanities are as much part of language as the "nice" words.

So what? Every language has words that are considered decent and others that are inappropriate in polite society. If you prefer to lower yourself to the level of society that embraces those words, go for it. I prefer not.

In most societies, foul language is what children use when trying (unsuccessfully) to sound adult (or they desire to shock their listeners) and is used by others whose command of the language is inadequate to fully convey their feelings without resorting to such socially unacceptable terms. Eschewing profanity requires a higher level of creativity and self control than that exhibited by those who do use it.

It's one thing when someone utters a profanity upon hitting a thumb with a hammer. It is quite another when someone uses profanity habitually. The latter demonstrates the person is immature, too ignorant to express her/himself in a more socially acceptable manner or distains social acceptance.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by TGS

Perhaps more familiar to British English profanity users than American English users - here's a clue for anyone else struggling to work it out; when they are possessed by dogs they are considered to be rather good

I'm well read enough to have recognized the word TGS didn't have enough of to actually spell (disregarding the post might have been censored).

Even if I am from the wrong side of the pond.