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Old 11-21-2012, 03:45 PM   #1
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Table of Contents on Kindle
I prepared my book on Sigil and ran it thru Kindle Previewer. Previewer's Go to shows all the files I've marked with Add semantics, Table of Contents, Title Page, Copyright Page, Cover, Preface, etc. But when I loaded the Previewer output file onto my Kindle Touch, it doesn't show any of that stuff. All I get with Touch's Go to is Beginning and the first few chapters. If I'm actually on the Table of Contents, it also offers Cover and Front matter. How do I get the table of contents to show up on the Kindle? There are references in the guide for the cover, toc, and the other stuff.
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Old 11-21-2012, 04:39 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyG View Post
I prepared my book on Sigil and ran it thru Kindle Previewer. Previewer's Go to shows all the files I've marked with Add semantics, Table of Contents, Title Page, Copyright Page, Cover, Preface, etc. But when I loaded the Previewer output file onto my Kindle Touch, it doesn't show any of that stuff. All I get with Touch's Go to is Beginning and the first few chapters. If I'm actually on the Table of Contents, it also offers Cover and Front matter. How do I get the table of contents to show up on the Kindle? There are references in the guide for the cover, toc, and the other stuff.
Sigil does EPUB. If the EPUB checks as Valid, that makes this is a Kindle question.
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Old 11-21-2012, 05:05 PM   #3
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Sigil does EPUB. If the EPUB checks as Valid, that makes this is a Kindle question.
Yes, but whatever I do, I'm going to have to do in Sigil...
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Old 11-21-2012, 05:20 PM   #4
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Based on Kindle Publishing Guidelines, I don't think the Kindle supports everything that Sigil does

http://kindlegen.s3.amazonaws.com/Am...Guidelines.pdf


Quote:
3.4 Guide Item Guidelines

3.4.1 Guide Item Guideline #1: Recommended Guide Items

The Kindle platform supports guide items for defining the cover, the table of contents (TOC), and the start reading location (”Go to Beginning”). Do not set the start reading location to a blank page.

Amazon does not recommend adding additional guide items to the OPF file, because they will be grayed out in the menu options and may cause customer confusion.
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Old 11-21-2012, 06:19 PM   #5
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Based on Kindle Publishing Guidelines, I don't think the Kindle supports everything that Sigil does

http://kindlegen.s3.amazonaws.com/Am...Guidelines.pdf




Paul
It works fine in Kindle for pc. I'll get rid of the other guide items and see if that helps. Thanks.
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Old 11-21-2012, 06:29 PM   #6
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No joy. Undid the guides for everything but cover, toc, and beginning. Still the only thing that shows up on Touch are beginning, page or location, and the first 11 chapters.
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Old 11-22-2012, 02:03 PM   #7
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On the kdp support forums they told me that the Kindle touch has changed so that Go to shows the first entries in the toc.ncx. I put the toc in the ncx and my Touch still didn't show it on the file Previewer produced. But I went ahead and submitted it to kdp and when I loaded the preview .mobi file produced there in my Touch, the toc was there. So, if that is the case, that it shows the ncx entries, then none of my previous books will show the toc. But then nobody else's will either.
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Old 11-22-2012, 04:59 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyG View Post
On the kdp support forums they told me that the Kindle touch has changed so that Go to shows the first entries in the toc.ncx. I put the toc in the ncx and my Touch still didn't show it on the file Previewer produced. But I went ahead and submitted it to kdp and when I loaded the preview .mobi file produced there in my Touch, the toc was there. So, if that is the case, that it shows the ncx entries, then none of my previous books will show the toc. But then nobody else's will either.
Jimmy:

I don't know which person replied to you on the KDP forums, but I'd have to know which before I'd know whether the info you received is valid. The one thing that's not clear to me, from your thread, is which Table of Contents is linked via your Guide? Did you try to link the ncx as your Guide TOC, or are you using an HTML TOC?

BTW, yes, an ncx will work on Kindle For PC, but it's about the only place it will. No early e-ink Kindle will display an ncx, and neither will most of the later models, even the first-gen Fire. Do you have an html toc that you linked via the Guide?

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Old 11-23-2012, 09:14 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Hitch View Post
Jimmy:

I don't know which person replied to you on the KDP forums, but I'd have to know which before I'd know whether the info you received is valid. The one thing that's not clear to me, from your thread, is which Table of Contents is linked via your Guide? Did you try to link the ncx as your Guide TOC, or are you using an HTML TOC?

BTW, yes, an ncx will work on Kindle For PC, but it's about the only place it will. No early e-ink Kindle will display an ncx, and neither will most of the later models, even the first-gen Fire. Do you have an html toc that you linked via the Guide?

Hitch
First, man2010 said, "One of the recent firmware updates of Touch replaced the "Table of Contents" link in the "Go to" menu with the entire contents of the NCX (logical table of contents). This same thing is true of the Kindle Paperwhite by design. This means that you need to code the link to your table of contents in the NCX file, if you want it to show up in the "Go to" menu of the Touch and Paperwhite."

The Guide points to toc.html. Kindle for PC was showing the toc on the Go to menu before I put it in the ncx. My Touch is still not showing Cover on Go to, which is why I realized it was showing the ncx. As is usual with these outfits the guidelines are updated last, if ever. The Previewer is still showing the Guide items on the Go to, not the ncx.
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Old 11-23-2012, 09:33 AM   #10
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A lot of the books I buy, the Go just shows Beginning, Page or location, and the chapters following where I'm at in the book, which is unhelpful. A writer (who has a bunch of books in print) was putting a series of three together in one book on KDP, his first effort, and was having trouble with the toc. I told him about the Guide, but he was working with Word, which I know nothing about, so I wasn't much help. But he got it done. I bought the book, and the only thing on the Go to are Beginning, Page or location, Cover, Table of Contents, and End. I haven't asked him how he finally fixed it, because I figured it'd be something with Word, which wouldn't help me. I spent about three years building a big website, so I'm more comfortable with html.
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Old 11-23-2012, 02:46 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyG View Post
A lot of the books I buy, the Go just shows Beginning, Page or location, and the chapters following where I'm at in the book, which is unhelpful. A writer (who has a bunch of books in print) was putting a series of three together in one book on KDP, his first effort, and was having trouble with the toc. I told him about the Guide, but he was working with Word, which I know nothing about, so I wasn't much help. But he got it done. I bought the book, and the only thing on the Go to are Beginning, Page or location, Cover, Table of Contents, and End. I haven't asked him how he finally fixed it, because I figured it'd be something with Word, which wouldn't help me. I spent about three years building a big website, so I'm more comfortable with html.
Jimmy:

Somebody's confused, or mixing up their terminology, or something.

The NCX is the logical table of contents used by all ebooks (or should be--not every mobi has it). The HTML TOC of course is the ubiquitous "typed" toc that displays in MOBI (and, in ePUB3, will actually be replaced, but not by the ncx, but that's another discussion).

The "GO TO" does not ever display what's on the toc.html. The "GOT TO" only displays whatever is in the Guide, and on a mobi built now, only displays (usually) the three main guide items: cover, toc and beginning. The "GO TO" will not display the entire contents of the TOC. What Man2010 meant, I trust, is that the paperwhite will display the ncx as the TOC, when you click "go to TOC." It won't popup the entire TOC after you click "GO TO." The same is true on the Touch. I don't understand why you would not be seeing your cover. When you built your ePUB, did you mark both the cover.html file and the cover.jpg files as "cover," with the semantics?

I've never seen a mobi file that has the chapters that follow the one you're on in the GO TO. Can you grab a screenshot of a book that you have that does that, thanks? A mobi file?

Honestly, given that the vast majority of Kindle devices still won't show the ncx, if I understand your intent correctly, you are far better off just using the HTML.toc for the Guide at this time. None of the available options will display the ncx-toc as part of the GO TO menu--just the items listed in the Guide. Can you drop your ncx in here (nuke the text contents in large part, so that it doesn't take up an entire screen, thanks) and we'll all take a peek, vis-a-vis the cover issue?

When you say this:

Quote:
The Guide points to toc.html. Kindle for PC was showing the toc on the Go to menu before I put it in the ncx. My Touch is still not showing Cover on Go to, which is why I realized it was showing the ncx. As is usual with these outfits the guidelines are updated last, if ever. The Previewer is still showing the Guide items on the Go to, not the ncx.
...it confuses me, so I'd like to clarify what you are expecting to see, or think you should be seeing, versus what you ARE seeing. So that I have a better idea of what you really need to know.

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Old 11-23-2012, 03:44 PM   #12
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What Man2010 meant, I trust, is that the paperwhite will display the ncx as the TOC, when you click "go to TOC." It won't popup the entire TOC after you click "GO TO."
On my paperwhite when I select Go To I see the entries in the TOC displayed. With a nice hierarchy for sub-chapters.

Specifically for the Sigil User Guide I see:

Go To

Beginning
Page or Location

Copyright
Table of Contents
> Introduction
> Installation
...

End
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Old 11-23-2012, 04:11 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by meme View Post
On my paperwhite when I select Go To I see the entries in the TOC displayed. With a nice hierarchy for sub-chapters.

Specifically for the Sigil User Guide I see:

Go To

Beginning
Page or Location

Copyright
Table of Contents
> Introduction
> Installation
...

End
meme:

Thanks. I knew that there had been an update to the Touch that was alleged to do that (wasn't sure about the Paperwhite), but as I know you know, that's not going to work for all the other Kindle devices. That's what I'm trying to understand from the poster--what he's trying to accomplish. His post is confusing me. If he wants to take advantage of the Paperwhite/Touch feature, only, that's one thing; but if he's trying to get a TOC that shows up for all Kindles, that's a different thing. Kindle for PC has had an ncx display for about 18 months now, if memory serves, but you can't use that for any of the legacy devices, or even the Fire (at least, not the last time I looked, which granted, was a few days ago.) ;-)

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Old 11-24-2012, 08:15 AM   #14
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Here's the Guide:

Code:
<guide>
    <reference href="Text/cover.html" title="Cover" type="cover" />
    <reference href="Text/sufferer.html" title="Text" type="text" />
    <reference href="Text/toc.html" title="Table Of Contents" type="toc" />
  </guide>
All of this stuff shows on Kindle for PC's Go menu, and on Kindle Previewer's Go to menu. None of it shows up on my Touch.

What I wanted on the Go to menu was "Table of Contents" So people can find my Table of Contents from wherever they are in the book. Following what they said about the ncx, I put the Table of contents there, the beginning of the ncx:

Code:
<navMap>
    <navPoint id="navPoint-1" playOrder="1">
      <navLabel>
        <text>Table of Contents</text>
      </navLabel>
      <content src="Text/toc.html"/>
    </navPoint>
    <navPoint id="navPoint-2" playOrder="2">
      <navLabel>
        <text>Who's Who</text>
      </navLabel>
      <content src="Text/Whoswho.html"/>
    </navPoint>
    <navPoint id="navPoint-3" playOrder="3">
      <navLabel>
        <text>Preface</text>
      </navLabel>
      <content src="Text/Preface.html"/>
    </navPoint>
    <navPoint id="navPoint-4" playOrder="4">
      <navLabel>
        <text>The Innocent Sufferer</text>
      </navLabel>
      <content src="Text/sufferer.html"/>
    </navPoint>
    <navPoint id="navPoint-5" playOrder="5">
      <navLabel>
        <text>No. 1. Capt. Bligh to Mrs. Heywood</text>
      </navLabel>
      <content src="Text/No%20001.html"/>
    </navPoint>
    <navPoint id="navPoint-6" playOrder="6">
      <navLabel>
        <text>No. 2. Mr. Bligh to Col. Holwell</text>
      </navLabel>
      <content src="Text/No%20002.html"/>
    </navPoint>
    <navPoint id="navPoint-7" playOrder="7">
      <navLabel>
        <text>No. 3. Mr. Stanhope to Capt. Shuttleworth</text>
      </navLabel>
      <content src="Text/No%20003.html"/>
    </navPoint>
And here's my toc:

Table of Contents

Note: Two letters were numbered 34 in the original manuscript. -Ed.
Who's Who
Preface
The Innocent Sufferer
No. 1. William Bligh to Elizabeth Heywood 2 Apr 1790
No. 2. William Bligh to James Holwell 26 Mar 1790
No. 3. William Stanhope to Captain Shuttleworth 13 Apr 1790
No. 4. James M. Heywood to Nessy Heywood 14 Apr 1790
No. 5 Francis Hayward to Nessy Heywood 27 Jul 1790
No. 6. John Hallett to Nessy Heywood 19 Mar 1792
No. 7. James M. Heywood to Nessy Heywood 12 May 1792
No. 8. Nessy Heywood to James M. Heywood 3 Jun 1792
No. 9. Nessy Heywood to Peter Heywood 3 Jun 1792
No. 10. Thomas Pasley to Nessy Heywood 8 Jun 1792
No. 11. John C. Curwen to Nessy Heywood 21 Jun 1792
No. 12. James M. Heywood to Nessy Heywood 22 Jun 1792
No. 13. Nessy Heywood to Thomas Pasley 22 Jun 1792
No. 14. Peter Heywood to Elizabeth Heywood 20 Nov 1791
No. 15. Peter Heywood to Richard Betham 20 Jun 1792

(Beginning with "Who's Who" are links.)

And now my Touch's Go to menu shows:
Beginning
Page or Location
Table of Contents
Who's Who
Preface
The Innocent Sufferer
No. 1....
No. 2...
No. 3...
and so on until it runs out of space. The numbers go up to 117, they are letters. That's why the toc is so important. Some people may read from beginning to end, but others will only want to read certain letters. And just as I suspected, if you're on letter No. 65 and bring up Go to, it shows:

Beginning
Page or Location
No 66...
No 67...
No 68...
and so on. So the only way to get to the Table of Contents is to go to Beginning and page back. That is not helpful. I guess the only solution is to make the Table of Contents the Beginning.

BTW...Kindle for PC does not show the ncx. For this book, on the Go menu it shows the Guide items:
Library
.........
Cover
Table of Contents
Beginning
Location...

You can get the ncx if you click View -> Show Document Navigation.

I got a response from KDP Support. They sent me links to explanations for building a table of contents in Word. I specifically told them I wasn't using Word, but of course they didn't bother to read what I said. If their response didn't answer my question, there's a link where I can take a survey. Whoopee.

My friend's book doesn't show any of the ncx. No matter where you are in the book, the only thing the Go to menu shows is:

Beginning
Page or location
Cover
Table of Contents
End

But he works in Word on a Mac and can't explain to me how he did it.

I'm sorry if I've just confused you further, but I just don't know any other way to explain it.
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Old 11-26-2012, 04:18 PM   #15
Hitch
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Posts: 11,460
Karma: 158448243
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Device: K2, iPad, KFire, PPW, Voyage, NookColor. 2 Droid, Oasis, Boox Note2
Hi:

Sorry...swamped here with the usual, super-late, Christmas Rush. It never fails.

I suspect that what your friend did very simply was NOT have an ncx. Many people who work strictly in Word don't. They use anchor tags (bookmarks) in their Word files, and when they build the file using Kindlegen (via the KDP, in other words), the software "builds" the Guide items for them. So, in other words, in a Word file, your friend put an anchor (bookmark) called "TOC" before his typed TOC. He put an anchor called "start" wherever he wanted to start (n.b.: the latest KG has a bug, and will not, for whatever reason, start at the first html page after the cover.).

That's why his works. I know, I know--it's crazy-making. For a while there was something else, I forget what the hell it was, that worked better in Word than it did in html, making mobi's. Amazon makes certain assumptions, when it's writing its software, about what noobs will do with Word, and compensates for it. Like what they did for your friend's book.

What I don't know, because I have not run into it, is how to circumvent what you're experiencing. I don't know how to get the toc that's being displayed to show the entire thing, so that someone on, say, chapter 65 can leap back to Chapter 1, without having to go "Beginning," and then "TOC." I don't. I'll have to think about it.

Sorry I can't help you more, right this second, but that's why your friend's book works as it does and yours does not--he doesn't have an NCX. He used anchors and Kindlegen built the Guide for him.

Hitch
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