02-05-2009, 05:49 AM | #511 | |
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I think a poorly educated affluent person is less likely to be religious than an impoverished poorly educated person - because religion offers the poor hope for something better; the wealthier you are, the less your need for such comfort. Actually, God gets in the way if you can afford to enjoy a hedonistic lifestyle. |
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02-05-2009, 05:53 AM | #512 | |
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02-05-2009, 06:37 AM | #513 | ||
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I would say that in some countries you do not need domestic donation since you have a working welfare system. Which seems to me to be a much better solution to the problem. Quote:
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02-05-2009, 06:43 AM | #514 | |
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It was "reflects individual virtue" I felt was not a correct description if there was a large part of egoistical thinking involved. But maybe I am using another definition of "virtue" than was intended. Last edited by tompe; 02-05-2009 at 07:56 AM. |
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02-05-2009, 07:13 AM | #515 | |
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One particular Buddhist sect particularly fond of technical issues defines a Buddha as a being that has totally fulfilled the two needs. The two needs being 1. The beings own needs and 2. All other beings needs. I think this recognizes that own needs and desires are tied into everything and we just need to work with it |
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02-05-2009, 09:26 AM | #516 | ||
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The first is a cultural context: in the Patriarchal times, wealth was seen as evidence of God's favor on the person (think Solomon), and therefore direct evidence of that person's righteousness. From that context this is as much a comment on how righteous a person had to be to get to Heaven on their own. But of course Jesus' whole point in being here was so that folks wouldn't have to make it on their own righteousness. There's also the factor, alluded to in an earlier post, that wealth tends to, lets call it "distract" a person from considering spiritual things. People who are "fat and happy" (metaphorically speaking) tend not to think about such things. Jesus did tell a few people to sell/give away all their possessions, but it wasn't a general teaching. He also said that the worker is worthy of his hire. The point there (as I understand it) is more to stop regarding the material things and wealth as "ours" and regard it more as having been placed in our keeping -- a stewardship role, which is effectively relinquishing claim over them in favor of accepting responsibility to the true owner for caring for and using those things properly. Rather a different thing altogether. Quote:
On the topic of education and affluence, I'm personally acquainted with a fair number of folks who are (certainly by general world standards) reasonably "wealthy" and quite well educated (PhD level) who embrace a Christian faith. |
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02-05-2009, 09:32 AM | #517 |
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I have also held to that opinion. Trouble is, there are very educated people who have found or developed rational explanations for their religion.
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02-05-2009, 10:02 AM | #518 | |
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In the US when you donate money do you keep it secret or do you tell a lot of people that you have donated money? In Sweden it is relatively common that people donate money to organisations like "Doctors withou a border" but usually that is not something they tell other people about. |
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02-05-2009, 11:06 AM | #519 | |||
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Certainly, I've accepted the responsibility I'm talking about because of what I've been taught, but I made the choices to accept those teachings or not, and I didn't accept the responsibility itself until I'd accepted the teachings to the point that they changed the way I looked at and did things. "Grew up," if you like. Quote:
Generally speaking that sort of thing would be considered bragging, and therefore self-aggrandizing, and in rather poor taste. I knew that my mother did things for others and gave donations while I was growing up, so I had it modeled for me, but I'm pretty sure that most other folks had no idea. In fact, Jesus had something to say about that matter: Quote:
I guess my point is that even though it's pretty rare to get any real reward for doing good, at least in terms of the here and now (no good deed goes unpunished, after all!), folks still do good things anyway. Esoteric philosophies not withstanding, just dismissing that categorically seems a mite callous to me. The bit of Biblical philosophy that would seem to apply is the thing about knowing folks' hearts by the things they do. |
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02-05-2009, 11:09 AM | #520 | ||
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In somewhat related news (in the US), Obama is creating a faith-based office.
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If you were wondering, it was in the episode "The Story of D" (season 5) when Daria walks in and Jake is trying to thread a needle and cursing at why they make the eye of the needle so small, and she replies that she guesses it was to piss of the camel. At least, I'm guessing that's what the reference was. Much better than my previous "Huh? What does a camel have to do with it?" Does that make up for any potentially lack of civility in my last post, HarryT? Going to go retreat back into my dorky little world now... |
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02-05-2009, 11:12 AM | #521 | |
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02-05-2009, 01:19 PM | #522 |
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tompe - no, the original post was not about foreign aid. That was your interpolation, presumably arising from your "priors" as the economists call them.
You say if you wish to use terms you have to understand them. Your use of the term "egoisim," though is irrelevant, unless you can distinguish "egoism" that leads to selfish actions from "egoism" that leads to virtuous actions such as donating to charity. You can use any term you want to smear the motivations of those who do good; the point is that private donation to charity is virtuous in a way that paying taxes is not. Your comments about government-run welfare systems being superior opens such a huge topic that it's not worth discussing in detail. Suffice it to say that a lot of people disagree that government welfare is a good idea; and in fact it was partially dismantled in the United States about fifteen years ago because the results were so disastrous. Many would argue that Europe has become stagnant and lost its leadership, and is in decline, as a result of its welfare state policies. |
02-05-2009, 02:09 PM | #523 | |||
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02-05-2009, 02:12 PM | #524 |
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I loved the opening phrase, Declaring that "there is a force for good greater than government,". IMO any good is greater than government. Probably even some bad has more good than government!
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02-05-2009, 03:11 PM | #525 |
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The observations of the generally lower social and educational status of religious folk, are nothing new. The Greeks took note, as did the Romans.
For instance, Seneca the Younger allegedly quipped that "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful." Also, at the end of the Second Century, Celsus made the following comments about the nascent Christian sects in Rome: "We see, indeed, in private houses workers in wool and leather, and fullers, and persons of the most uninstructed and rustic character, not venturing to utter a word in the presence of their elders and wiser masters; but when they get hold of the children privately, and certain women as ignorant as themselves, they pour forth wonderful statements, to the effect that they ought not to give heed to their father and to their teachers, but should obey them; that the former are foolish and stupid, and neither know nor can perform anything that is really good, being preoccupied with empty trifles; that they alone know how men ought to live, and that, if the children obey them, they will both be happy themselves, and will make their home happy also. And while thus speaking, if they see one of the instructors of youth approaching, or one of the more intelligent class, or even the father himself, the more timid among them become afraid, while the more forward incite the children to throw off the yoke, whispering that in the presence of father and teachers they neither will nor can explain to them any good thing, seeing they turn away with aversion from the silliness and stupidity of such persons as being altogether corrupt, and far advanced in wickedness, and such as would inflict punishment upon them; but that if they wish (to avail themselves of their aid,) they must leave their father and their instructors, and go with the women and their playfellows to the women's apartments, or to the leather shop, or to the fuller's shop, that they may attain to perfection;--and by words like these they gain them over." Of course, we only know of Celsus from the Christian apologist Origen's Contra Celsus, since the good Christians made sure to destroy every copy of Celsus' work. Not so unlike the original poster's aim of removing the Dawkins excerpt from the Sony ereader. |
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