What are your views on illegal copying?

[Xenophon]

Originally Posted by Lemurion

Interesting poll questions.

One option I don't see is "It's OK to copy a book so that I can use my already paid-for electronic version on a different (or incompatible) device." (For example stripping DRM so I can put a Kindle book on my Sony). I think that's an important omission because very few people will be opposed to that and so it helps show that there really is a continuum and that very few people are going to be always on one side or the other.

[SNIP]

That particular example is arguably legal in the US. It's also arguably illegal in the US. Lacking clarification from the courts, and by formal written advice-of-counsel,* I consider DRM-stripping and format shifting to be legal. (Only for personal use of legitimately acquired content, of course!) So that left me choosing "All illegal..." as my poll choice.

But it's important to note that there are grey zones where legality is not entirely clear! So even a poll like this one doesn't quite cover the spectrum fully.

Xenophon
* Yes, I have formal written legal advice from an extremely eminent legal expert that DRM-stripping and format shifting of legit content for personal use is legal. I even paid a nominal sum for that advice. Seminars on legal issues sometimes provide interesting side benefits...

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Ben Thornton

Rather than get into debates about what should be right and wrong, surely it is enough to know that laws change depending on where (and when) you live, to reject the idea that "if it is not legal to do something and you do it then it is wrong".

Not if one's viewpoint is simply that it's wrong to break the law.

I don't hold that view, I should add, but I know that it is a not uncommon viewpoint.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by dsvick

Case closed, no discussion, it is cut and dried - if it is not legal to do something and you do it then it is wrong.

Does that mean you think gay sex was wrong for many years, and is now not-wrong? Is it wrong to be Christian in a country where it's forbidden? Was it wrong for the underground railroad to help slaves escape their legal owners?

In many cases, laws are challenged by breaking them. If enough people don't have a problem with breaking a law, that shows that public opinion about "what is wrong" has shifted faster than the laws can change--or that the laws are controlled by people who have resources to promote their own interests, regardless of what the public believes.

I'm not saying "ebook sharing is okay;" just pointing out that "illegal = morally wrong" has some serious problems.

[Ben Thornton]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Not if one's viewpoint is simply that it's wrong to break the law.

I don't hold that view, I should add, but I know that it is a not uncommon viewpoint.

What I was suggesting was that I think, if most people stopped to think about it, that they would not really hold this viewpoint. For example, what if something that they approved of became illegal when legislation was passed - would they really feel it was wrong as a result? What if they go on holiday to another country - do their ideas of right and wrong change with the laws applicable to them on their travels as the juristiction changes?

It is, of course, possible to hold this view - that obedience to the law is the sole (or an over-riding) arbiter of wrongness, but I doubt that any sane person actually holds this view.

[amjbrown]

Great survey

I looks as if there is some consensus around:

- if it's public domain somewhere, then I'm fine; how can it be PD in country X but not country Y?
- if you've made it impossible for me to obtain it "legally", then I'll use my initiative
- if I've already paid for it, I shouldn't pay again


The first two ring true, the last one makes me pause. A paperback is not the same as the hardback which is not the same as a special edition or the eBook. I am not sure I can demand a second copy just because I paid for the first.

However, here I have a personal parallel with music. If a remastered version with a digital booklet of an old favourite appears on iTMS, I'll buy it - extra value, I'll pay for that. Equally, if an album appears cheaply that I haven't yet ripped from *my* CD, then I'll buy that too - inexpensive way of saving labour. So, forget the row over the $9.99 or $19.99 bestsellers - if you want me to pay for your extensive back catalogue, make it cheap, and then I would never even consider copying it from elsewhere using the "I already own it" excuse.

As for restricting books to geographies - currently I can work around that. If you close that door (and don't make them available in my country) - please don't be cross when I make alternative arrangements!

Publishers...it's up to you

amjb

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by GhostHawk

...

Yes I'm a pirate, but not always by choice.

Being a pirate (or anything for that matter) is always by choice.

[Ben Thornton]

Originally Posted by kennyc

Being a pirate (or anything for that matter) is always by choice.

Tell that to the press-gangs!

[JoeD]

It's OK to copy a book that is not published in my country (I can't buy it here)

Does this question assume we cannot purchase it from another country, for example if geographical restrictions prevent you buying it there _and_ it's not published in your country?

[Bremen Cole]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

Does that mean you think gay sex was wrong for many years, and is now not-wrong? Is it wrong to be Christian in a country where it's forbidden? Was it wrong for the underground railroad to help slaves escape their legal owners?

In many cases, laws are challenged by breaking them. If enough people don't have a problem with breaking a law, that shows that public opinion about "what is wrong" has shifted faster than the laws can change--or that the laws are controlled by people who have resources to promote their own interests, regardless of what the public believes.

I'm not saying "ebook sharing is okay;" just pointing out that "illegal = morally wrong" has some serious problems.

Good Lord man! Where do you get such RADICAL ideas!!!! Karma to you my friend!

[Kevin2960]

Theft is theft, dress it up anyway you like, in the end we all have to live with how we act/behave,

It upsets me that people who moan at publishers cheating them ?, are then so happy to take from an author, without paying even a token amount ???

In the end we have to do what we believe is right, and I know what I truly believe,

[Ben Thornton]

Originally Posted by Kevin2960

Theft is theft, dress it up anyway you like

Of course theft is theft, and murder is murder, and making an illegal copy is making an illegal copy.

This emotive language is not appropriate. If I consider my posts as my children, and anyone who disagrees with me as molesting my posts, should I refer to their actions as child molesting? Might that upset them? It would be inappropriate because what people mean by child molesting is different to what they are doing. And what people mean by theft is different to, for example, downloading a copy of a book you own on paper in contravention of copyright laws (if that even does contravene them, IANAL).

It upsets me that people who moan at publishers cheating them ?, are then so happy to take from an author, without paying even a token amount ???

Often, people would love to pay - especially a "token amount" - but there may be no official published version, or geo restrictions. Or maybe they feel that, having bought the paper book, they have already paid the author.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by Kevin2960

Theft is theft, dress it up anyway you like, in the end we all have to live with how we act/behave,,

And things can be morally wrong without being theft. It might be morally wrong because it is copyright infringement for exemple.

And copyright infringment is not theft. I wish people could stop repeating these propaganda talking points that copyright infringement is theft. I might begin to suspect that people are payed for it...

[Kevin2960]

Originally Posted by tompe

And things can be morally wrong without being theft. It might be morally wrong because it is copyright infringement for exemple.

And copyright infringment is not theft. I wish people could stop repeating these propaganda talking points that copyright infringement is theft. I might begin to suspect that people are payed for it...

It is theft, someone loses out, it is wrong, but we still have to do what we believe is right

[dsvick]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

Sorry, case isn't closed. What you are describing is an 'unlawful' act, whether it is morally wrong or right is up for debate. ...

No, they don't 'deserve' anything. They can try for monetary compensation by the selling of their goods or services, but they do not 'deserve' anything.

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

Does that mean you think gay sex was wrong for many years, and is now not-wrong? Is it wrong to be Christian in a country where it's forbidden? Was it wrong for the underground railroad to help slaves escape their legal owners? ...

I'm not saying "ebook sharing is okay;" just pointing out that "illegal = morally wrong" has some serious problems.

You are both correct, I misspoke (typed). I should have said that if something is against the law then it is illegal to do it, not necessarily "wrong" to do it. And, Moejoe, you're right also, "deserve" was not the best word either. This, is further illustration of why I was never on the debate team

I will stand by my comments though that regardless of the justification people may think they have, performing an illegal act is still an illegal act. Regardless of whether or not the person performing the act thinks they have some moral imperative to right some perceived wrong. Sure some great things have been accomplished by some great people who did things that, at the time were illegal. I would submit though that most of those were done for issues that had far deeper meanings and implications than whether or not I think I should be allowed to copy a book I already own - which, by the way I do, I remove the DRM from all my books and make a back up copy.

This is a big difference from stealing though which is what is you are doing if you find a copy of book that is otherwise intended to be purchased and you download it without paying for it.

[Kevin2960]

Originally Posted by dsvick

This is a big difference from stealing though which is what is you are doing if you find a copy of book that is otherwise intended to be purchased and you download it without paying for it.

True !