Register Guidelines E-Books Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   MobileRead Forums > E-Book General > General Discussions

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 08-16-2012, 09:14 AM   #76
Freeshadow
temp. out of service
Freeshadow ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Freeshadow ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Freeshadow ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Freeshadow ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Freeshadow ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Freeshadow ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Freeshadow ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Freeshadow ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Freeshadow ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Freeshadow ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Freeshadow ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 2,786
Karma: 24285242
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Duisburg (DE)
Device: PB 623
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jozawun View Post
You cannot be seriously saying that if we decide the moral/ethical value of a person's acts by his intentions, then we must grant monopoly IPRs for his creative work.
I rather aimed at the difference between corporeal and non corporeal.
If you accept only manual labour as worth of being recognised devaluing what is the think-part of doings, there would be only a small logical step of adapting this system to other activities apart from work or creation. Neglecting IP says "how something was done doesn't matter" (no difference if something was copied or created only the mere existence of the item counts)
I just showed where this line of reasoning would end.
Freeshadow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2012, 02:53 PM   #77
Harmon
King of the Bongo Drums
Harmon ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Harmon ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Harmon ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Harmon ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Harmon ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Harmon ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Harmon ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Harmon ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Harmon ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Harmon ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Harmon ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Harmon's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,622
Karma: 5927225
Join Date: Feb 2009
Device: Excelsior! (Strange...)
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdurrant View Post
See my previous posts about second-hand copies.
I saw that, & consider it to be an economic point rather than an ethical one. I think your economic point makes some sense, but I don't see where there's any ethical aspect involved.
Harmon is offline   Reply With Quote
Advert
Old 08-16-2012, 03:13 PM   #78
Harmon
King of the Bongo Drums
Harmon ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Harmon ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Harmon ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Harmon ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Harmon ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Harmon ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Harmon ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Harmon ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Harmon ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Harmon ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Harmon ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Harmon's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,622
Karma: 5927225
Join Date: Feb 2009
Device: Excelsior! (Strange...)
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdurrant View Post
I disagree. There are ethical justifications for copyright (aka monopoly intellectual property rights).

First and foremost, to encourage the creation of "intellectual property".
Somewhere in the Bible the point is made that "the laborer is worthy of his hire". Which is to say that a person is entitled to be compensated for his labor. I think this is an ethical proposition.

Historically, the method of transferring economic compensation for creative labor consists of buying a physical object, in this case, a book. But putting aside situations where the book itself is an artistic creation, the book is not what is actually created. That is, a book is just a container for a narrative performance which is itself the creation of the author's labor.

Copyright is merely the legal protection of the compensation stream. It insures that the compensation is actual paid, and goes to the laborer author rather than some other person. So the ethical argument for copyright is derivative - there is no actual ethical component to copyright itself.

Further, I don't see how encouraging the creation of IP is a matter of ethics. It's a matter of culture or esthetics, or so it seems to me.

Last edited by Harmon; 08-16-2012 at 03:21 PM.
Harmon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2012, 03:26 PM   #79
teh603
Autism Spectrum Disorder
teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
teh603's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,212
Karma: 6244877
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Coastal Texas
Device: Android Phone
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harmon View Post
Copyright is merely the legal protection of the compensation stream. It insures that the compensation is actual paid, and goes to the laborer author rather than some other person. So the ethical argument for copyright is derivative - there is no actual ethical component to copyright itself.
So in that case, why can patents be bought and sold like commodities or stocks, and held by corporations? Modern patent law- modern going back at least to the time of Thomas Edison and Nicola Tesela- has never supported the argument you just made.
teh603 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2012, 03:40 PM   #80
speakingtohe
Wizard
speakingtohe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.speakingtohe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.speakingtohe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.speakingtohe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.speakingtohe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.speakingtohe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.speakingtohe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.speakingtohe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.speakingtohe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.speakingtohe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.speakingtohe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 4,812
Karma: 26912940
Join Date: Apr 2010
Device: sony PRS-T1 and T3, Kobo Mini and Aura HD, Tablet
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harmon View Post
I saw that, & consider it to be an economic point rather than an ethical one. I think your economic point makes some sense, but I don't see where there's any ethical aspect involved.
How can one ethically acquire a digital or copy of intellectual property for one's sole unrestricted use if it has not been paid for by someone?

Accidentally of course if someone got it illegally without your knowledge and gave it to you.

The author/publisher gave it to you.

You found the electrons making up this digital copy lying abandoned somewhere.

Perhaps it is merely a moral issue, that of right or wrong of which we all have differing standards .
speakingtohe is offline   Reply With Quote
Advert
Old 08-16-2012, 03:45 PM   #81
speakingtohe
Wizard
speakingtohe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.speakingtohe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.speakingtohe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.speakingtohe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.speakingtohe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.speakingtohe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.speakingtohe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.speakingtohe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.speakingtohe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.speakingtohe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.speakingtohe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 4,812
Karma: 26912940
Join Date: Apr 2010
Device: sony PRS-T1 and T3, Kobo Mini and Aura HD, Tablet
Quote:
Originally Posted by teh603 View Post
So in that case, why can patents be bought and sold like commodities or stocks, and held by corporations? Modern patent law- modern going back at least to the time of Thomas Edison and Nicola Tesela- has never supported the argument you just made.
Is the patent holder or other Intellectual property property rights holder not the original seller? If they sell the rights they are compensated, whether fairly or not.

Helen
speakingtohe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2012, 04:13 PM   #82
Harmon
King of the Bongo Drums
Harmon ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Harmon ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Harmon ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Harmon ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Harmon ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Harmon ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Harmon ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Harmon ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Harmon ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Harmon ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Harmon ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Harmon's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,622
Karma: 5927225
Join Date: Feb 2009
Device: Excelsior! (Strange...)
Quote:
Originally Posted by teh603 View Post
So in that case, why can patents be bought and sold like commodities or stocks, and held by corporations? Modern patent law- modern going back at least to the time of Thomas Edison and Nicola Tesela- has never supported the argument you just made.
I'm sorry, but I don't get your point. You are going to have to be more specific about what you are getting at before I can respond.
Harmon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2012, 03:57 AM   #83
Rizla
Member Retired
Rizla ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Rizla ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Rizla ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Rizla ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Rizla ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Rizla ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Rizla ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Rizla ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Rizla ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Rizla ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Rizla ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 3,183
Karma: 11721895
Join Date: Nov 2010
Device: Nook STR (rooted) & Sony T2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harmon View Post
Somewhere in the Bible the point is made that "the laborer is worthy of his hire". Which is to say that a person is entitled to be compensated for his labor. I think this is an ethical proposition.
Marx said the same thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harmon View Post
Copyright is merely the legal protection of the compensation stream. It insures that the compensation is actual paid, and goes to the laborer author rather than some other person.
And yet most of the money does not go to the laborer but to the middlemen.
Rizla is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2012, 06:27 AM   #84
HansTWN
Wizard
HansTWN ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HansTWN ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HansTWN ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HansTWN ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HansTWN ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HansTWN ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HansTWN ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HansTWN ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HansTWN ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HansTWN ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HansTWN ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 4,538
Karma: 264065402
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Taiwan
Device: HP Touchpad, Sony Duo 13, Lumia 920, Kobo Aura HD
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rizla View Post
And yet most of the money does not go to the laborer but to the middlemen.
That really depends on the book. What if the author doesn't even earn back his advance?
HansTWN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2012, 06:49 AM   #85
pdurrant
The Grand Mouse 高貴的老鼠
pdurrant ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pdurrant ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pdurrant ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pdurrant ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pdurrant ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pdurrant ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pdurrant ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pdurrant ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pdurrant ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pdurrant ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pdurrant ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
pdurrant's Avatar
 
Posts: 71,367
Karma: 305065800
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Norfolk, England
Device: Kindle Voyage
Quote:
Originally Posted by HansTWN View Post
That really depends on the book. What if the author doesn't even earn back his advance?
Publishers usually make money on a book even if the author doesn't "earn back his advance".

e.g. 5,000 hardback print run.
$25 dollar retail price
$12.50 wholesale price
$2.50 print cost.
10% retail price royalty
$10,000 advance.

Only sells 3,000 copies.

Publisher costs:
$10,000 advance
$12,500 print cost

Publisher income:
$37,500

Publisher profit(loss): $15,000.

Author royalties: $7,500. Didn't earn out the advance. Keeps all of $10,000 advance.


The book didn't earn out the advance. The publisher still made 50% more than the author.
pdurrant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2012, 07:01 AM   #86
Rizla
Member Retired
Rizla ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Rizla ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Rizla ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Rizla ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Rizla ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Rizla ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Rizla ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Rizla ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Rizla ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Rizla ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Rizla ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 3,183
Karma: 11721895
Join Date: Nov 2010
Device: Nook STR (rooted) & Sony T2
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdurrant View Post
Publishers usually make money on a book even if the author doesn't "earn back his advance".
The publisher's costs will be a lot less for an e-book. Does a writer get paid more for an e-book to reflect the reduced costs of the publisher?
Rizla is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2012, 07:03 AM   #87
pdurrant
The Grand Mouse 高貴的老鼠
pdurrant ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pdurrant ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pdurrant ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pdurrant ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pdurrant ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pdurrant ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pdurrant ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pdurrant ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pdurrant ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pdurrant ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pdurrant ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
pdurrant's Avatar
 
Posts: 71,367
Karma: 305065800
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Norfolk, England
Device: Kindle Voyage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rizla View Post
The publisher's costs will be a lot less for an e-book. Does a writer get paid more for an e-book to reflect the reduced costs of the publisher?
It depends on the publisher (and what you mean by "more"). The best rates I've heard about are 50% of the money received by the publisher.

But I've dragged the thread off-topic again. Sorry.
pdurrant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2012, 07:12 AM   #88
HansTWN
Wizard
HansTWN ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HansTWN ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HansTWN ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HansTWN ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HansTWN ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HansTWN ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HansTWN ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HansTWN ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HansTWN ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HansTWN ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HansTWN ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 4,538
Karma: 264065402
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Taiwan
Device: HP Touchpad, Sony Duo 13, Lumia 920, Kobo Aura HD
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdurrant View Post
Publishers usually make money on a book even if the author doesn't "earn back his advance".

e.g. 5,000 hardback print run.
$25 dollar retail price
$12.50 wholesale price
$2.50 print cost.
10% retail price royalty
$10,000 advance.

Only sells 3,000 copies.

Publisher costs:
$10,000 advance
$12,500 print cost

Publisher income:
$37,500

Publisher profit(loss): $15,000.

Author royalties: $7,500. Didn't earn out the advance. Keeps all of $10,000 advance.


The book didn't earn out the advance. The publisher still made 50% more than the author.
You are only using print costs. What about costs for ads and promotions, transportation, storage, proof-reading and editing, etc?
HansTWN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2012, 07:19 AM   #89
pdurrant
The Grand Mouse 高貴的老鼠
pdurrant ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pdurrant ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pdurrant ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pdurrant ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pdurrant ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pdurrant ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pdurrant ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pdurrant ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pdurrant ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pdurrant ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pdurrant ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
pdurrant's Avatar
 
Posts: 71,367
Karma: 305065800
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Norfolk, England
Device: Kindle Voyage
Quote:
Originally Posted by HansTWN View Post
You are only using print costs. What about costs for ads and promotions, transportation, storage, proof-reading and editing, etc?
Oh, yes. There are indeed all those costs. And those costs certainly reduce the publisher's profit on a book. But I hope you're not suggesting that they come to more than $15,000 in the example I gave, or that publishers expect to make no profit on a book unless it earns out the advance.
pdurrant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2012, 08:14 AM   #90
SteveEisenberg
Grand Sorcerer
SteveEisenberg ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.SteveEisenberg ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.SteveEisenberg ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.SteveEisenberg ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.SteveEisenberg ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.SteveEisenberg ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.SteveEisenberg ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.SteveEisenberg ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.SteveEisenberg ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.SteveEisenberg ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.SteveEisenberg ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 7,020
Karma: 39312118
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: near Philadelphia USA
Device: Kindle Kids Edition, Fire HD 10 (11th generation)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rizla View Post
And yet most of the money does not go to the laborer but to the middlemen.
In the US, the two big book middlemen are Ingram Book Company and Baker & Taylor.

If the publishers were just middlemen, I don't think there would be such a focus on them.

There are some books where the publisher didn't contribute much beyond marketing. In a case where the book started out indie, and was taken up by a publisher (50 Shades franchise), we have proof of it. But almost all the time, when I read a book, I have no idea whether the publisher just took what was submitted, or did a total rewrite.

You could say that in the case of a rewrite, most of the money didn't go to the laborer either, it's just a different laborer who was ripped off (editor instead of author). However, it's not like everyone is sitting around publishing houses gossiping while the authors and editors do all the work. The work of the HR people and supervisors who hire the kind of editors that make books better rather than worse is also critical. And no one would be there without the finance people. Or the janitors.

There are companies where most of the revenue goes to executive salaries and profit. The big six are not among them. They don't spend much on lobbying the government, either. Most of the revenue goes, directly or indirectly, to creating product and getting it to readers.
SteveEisenberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Possible to print a listing of books? TdeV Library Management 13 06-17-2011 10:12 AM
Amazon Now Selling More Kindle Books Than All Print Books =X= News 27 05-24-2011 08:05 AM
E-Books Outsell Print Books at Amazon - NY Times KenIsaacson News 1 05-20-2011 07:52 AM
print a list of my books? StickMaker Amazon Kindle 11 03-04-2011 10:34 AM
Releasing Out of Print Books? KindleKid Reading Recommendations 6 12-05-2008 03:24 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:10 AM.


MobileRead.com is a privately owned, operated and funded community.