Ebook Adoption in Schools...will it happen?

[brecklundin]

After reading through the list of updated & reformatted books HarryT just put up I got to thinking about ebook adoption in schools.

I am thinking that with a basic reader, or even a more advanced with Kindle features such as dictionary/thesaurus features and even the much maligned Wikipedia would be a huge boon to teaching literature courses at any level. But I really see huge savings to schools. No more complaining they cannot teach classic literature because of the cost of the books...there are FREE and there for the asking. All that is missing are the low cost devices to make it happen.

With a Kindle kids could download a book all at class time and get to work right then and there. Or even if given the reading list combine that with some list like the Mobi format books HarryT and others have done or the one over at Feedbooks and cripes kids could have a summer/vacation reading list.

Of course given the low value we no place on a real education I am guessing there would be huge resistance and not all of it by the lucrative deals publishers have with school districts. But they too would be in there fighting...because a supply of books that cost say $500/class would now cost NOTHING, EVER...

Or maybe instead of phones parents would be asked to buy readers for their kids but at a discount as that would be completely deductible for the company providing the devices. What a way for Amazon to get Kindles into every kids hands??

It was just the sheer volume of books out there that should be, but never will be read by kids because the schools complain of the expense. Well, guess what, this might expose the fact the real reason is teachers simply are not equipped to actually teach anything. Or perhaps it is apathy on their part because of a flawed & decaying system...either way the books are there now for NOTHING.

Parents think nothing of spending $50/mo for a cell phone for the child..why not make a reader device available for like $100 with completely free readers for lower income folks. These could be used the whole time they are in say high school. Not sure about lower then that as, seriously, they kids are more computer literate then the teachers.

It makes sense that if they force parents to now buy uniforms for kids why cannot something that actually helps kids learn and become better thinkers be mandatory?

This was just off the top of my head and not thought out completely but I think I made the general idea clear enough...

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by brecklundin

Parents think nothing of spending $50/mo for a cell phone for the child..why not make a reader device available for like $100 with completely free readers for lower income folks. These could be used the whole time they are in say high school. Not sure about lower then that as, seriously, they kids are more computer literate then the teachers.

It's a lovely idea, that founders on costs.

Consider the OLPC effort. The original coal was to create a laptop that would cost $100. They couldn't. The current price is twice that.

It might be theoretically possible to produce a dedicated ebook reader for $100.

Semiconductor electronics is the classic capital intensive business. The raw materials are fairly cheap, but the factories that make the components are fantastically expensive. The majority of the cost of the components of such things is debt service on the financing to build the factories that make the parts.

Semiconductor fabs cost so much that we are seeing more outfits shifting to a "fabless" model, where they create the design and contract with someone else to manufacture, and even huge companies like Intel, IBM, and Texas Instruments entering into joint ventures with other entities on manufacturing because the costs are astronomical and getting more so as the technology advances.

You can make your widgets cheap if you make a zillion of them, because you can spread the allocated overhead incurred in making them over many more units, so the overhead becomes a progressively smaller part of the price you have to charge. The problem is, you have to make and sell a zillion.

Current dedicated ebook readers are comparatively expensive because the manufacturers don't have that sort of economy of scale.

To be able to offer these things for $100 (or free to low income folks), someone would have to commit to making a lot of them, to get the unit costs down to that level. Who will do it? And more to the point, who will fund it?

I don't see this happening.
______
Dennis

[Penforhire]

I suspect durability also holds back e-books from widespread school use. Ever see a regular textbook after a few semesters? Kids are rough. And the OLPC has better bang for the buck.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by Penforhire

I suspect durability also holds back e-books from widespread school use. Ever see a regular textbook after a few semesters? Kids are rough. And the OLPC has better bang for the buck.

That would be another factor.

You could get more bang for the buck by taking half what this would cost and using it to help schools get paper textbooks. It's all half of the schools I know of can do to get the funding to get regular books and supplies, and pay the teachers a decent salary, let alone contemplate any sort of high tech initiative.
______
Dennis

[Ervserver]

Many schools around here supply laptop computers now, I suspect kids don't need another electronic device to lug around. They are already hauling cell phones and iPods too

[brecklundin]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

It's a lovely idea, that founders on costs.

Consider the OLPC effort. The original coal was to create a laptop that would cost $100. They couldn't. The current price is twice that.

It might be theoretically possible to produce a dedicated ebook reader for $100.

Semiconductor electronics is the classic capital intensive business. The raw materials are fairly cheap, but the factories that make the components are fantastically expensive. The majority of the cost of the components of such things is debt service on the financing to build the factories that make the parts.

Semiconductor fabs cost so much that we are seeing more outfits shifting to a "fabless" model, where they create the design and contract with someone else to manufacture, and even huge companies like Intel, IBM, and Texas Instruments entering into joint ventures with other entities on manufacturing because the costs are astronomical and getting more so as the technology advances.

You can make your widgets cheap if you make a zillion of them, because you can spread the allocated overhead incurred in making them over many more units, so the overhead becomes a progressively smaller part of the price you have to charge. The problem is, you have to make and sell a zillion.

Current dedicated ebook readers are comparatively expensive because the manufacturers don't have that sort of economy of scale.

To be able to offer these things for $100 (or free to low income folks), someone would have to commit to making a lot of them, to get the unit costs down to that level. Who will do it? And more to the point, who will fund it?

I don't see this happening.
______
Dennis

I think you misread my comment about the price. Amazon can sell the devices for $100 then DEDUCT the difference from retail as schools are tax exempt and donations to them are deductible. I said NOTHING about OLPC or the cost to make these devices which is another topic and not germain to this idea.

Apple actually did something like my suggestion back in the 80s & 90s...that was why kids in school all knew how to use Apple computers (as in pre-mac era). It worked great...but was on a different scale.

[brecklundin]

Originally Posted by Penforhire

I suspect durability also holds back e-books from widespread school use. Ever see a regular textbook after a few semesters? Kids are rough. And the OLPC has better bang for the buck.

Possibly durability could be a big issue. OLPC might not be a bad idea either. I like the eink device because it's simply cleaner and the idea is not a laptop because the instructors are simply, well, as a rule not able to understand actually using one properly and there there is the whole idea of tech support.

I was specifically thinking of, for now, certain courses where more classic reading should happen. The removal of true literature courses from schools is a travesty. Something one learns in such courses is critical thinking and attempting to see things from differing perspectives. A primary reason used today is schools cannot afford the books...well...if they can be had free of charge as these are almost all public domain so the cost excuse is eliminated.

I am not sure the devices are really ready for advanced math/science texts. But surely english texts, foreign language texts, history texts...none of those need anything fancy or even color...font styles & a few shades of grey should be fine.

But I agree that durability would certainly be big concern...but it simply would mean holding the company supplying the devices to a high standard. As we should be anyway for devices costing anywhere from $300-$1000 or so...that is not throw away type cash.

[brecklundin]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

That would be another factor.

You could get more bang for the buck by taking half what this would cost and using it to help schools get paper textbooks. It's all half of the schools I know of can do to get the funding to get regular books and supplies, and pay the teachers a decent salary, let alone contemplate any sort of high tech initiative.
______
Dennis

Again you missed the whole point in my OP...it would cost schools NOTHING. Students would be required to buy the devices...at whatever cost works...my $100 was just a number. As I indicated parents or the kids themselves throw away $1000's/year on cars, cell phones, video games...and they as a rule spend a few bucks for some pens, pencils and a bit of paper...it's a matter of priority over instant gratification.

Schools can restore courses they had to eliminate because the books needed were costing $10/each or so...and for a lit course they might easily go through 5-10 books a semester per student depending on the reading level and the depth of in class discussions. That is easily $75/kid...and a book might last all of 3-years as they are paperbacks. Again this way the books are FREE and the kids provide the reader...or even there could be a deposit setup where the school loans them out...

But the idea is to find ways to return real learning not look to keep avoiding it...

Of course I am certain Amazon would not have the production capacity right now nor the support structure to begin something like this tomorrow...but it would be nice to see a school district somewhere consider the idea.

One of the BEST courses I took in HS was taught by a guy named Mr. Sciame (I think I spelled it correctly.) First quarter was Minority Lit and the second was Shakespeare...never did I enjoy learning as much as I did in those course and I really developed a love of reading beyond SciFi...I also learned there was more to reading then simply looking at the words. There was meaning and depth in great writing. One simply had to know to look for it...btw, my degrees are not in liberal arts at all but I took what I learned from these courses with me into the arena of problem solving and analysis.

By removing this from school curriculums we do a huge disservice to the kids of today and tomorrow...and we now have the means to return it at essentially no cost as almost all the classics are public domain and ready as ebooks.

And heck if a kid has a laptop and knows how to use it then let them use that instead...but I know I would prefer the dedicated reader instead.

[brecklundin]

Originally Posted by Ervserver

Many schools around here supply laptop computers now, I suspect kids don't need another electronic device to lug around. They are already hauling cell phones and iPods too

And they absolutely do not need an iPod or cell phone in school...period. If the choice is between a very unnecessary luxury like an ipod or cell phone and an educational device...at school...which should be the choice?

And if they are required to use laptops then perhaps they could use them to read but I lean toward the ereader devices as it somewhat preserves the intimacy of a book and they can be read pretty much anywhere...but whatever works.

[brecklundin]

btw, the beauty of a Kindle like device is the EVDO (or whatever) delivery of content...no technical knowledge is required to make it happen...so, I guess I am trying to dumb it down, not for the student but rather for the teachers...

Someone in admin can schedule the books for delivery and viola they student has the books...I am sure a blanket agreement can be worked out to cover the small cost of delivering the books to a school district instead of the $0.10/transfer thing for the PD books.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by brecklundin

I think you misread my comment about the price. Amazon can sell the devices for $100 then DEDUCT the difference from retail as schools are tax exempt and donations to them are deductible. I said NOTHING about OLPC or the cost to make these devices which is another topic and not germain to this idea.

It is one hundred percent germane to the idea, because it has a large cost. Who will bear it?

Amazon? Highly unlikely, deductible or not. Whoever actually makes Amazon's devices? Even more unlikely, as this won't be tax deductible for them.

To do this, you are looking at government funding, which becomes an enormous political tangle, because you want a national initiative, but schools are locally controlled.

And even assuming you can provide a reader for $100, where do you get content? I'm willing to bet the vast majority of the textbooks used aren't in any ebook format.

This may start to become feasible when ebooks and ebook readers grow beyond being a niche market, but I don't see that occuring near term.
______
Dennis

[lmarie]

brecklundin,

I agree with you (except your comment about non-tech-savvy teachers ). I AM a teacher (inner city Philadelphia), and I can tell you that much of the technology so far leads to distraction rather than focus. I'm not sure how many people here have taken a group of kids to a computer lab, or rolled in a laptop cart and distributed laptops for an assignment, but I have. The internet provides endless opportunities for kids to do anything EXCEPT focus.

I'd love to see ebook devices, lightweight, portable, with student texts and literature easily downloaded to them. I think such a device would be more useful than a laptop. I know it's a pipe dream here in the US (I did read somewhere about an experiment with this in Norway though). We don't want to invest in education in this country -- at least, not in an education that will actually help our kids in the competitive global economy of the 21st century. Other countries will though.

[brecklundin]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

It is one hundred percent germane to the idea, because it has a large cost. Who will bear it?

Amazon? Highly unlikely, deductible or not. Whoever actually makes Amazon's devices? Even more unlikely, as this won't be tax deductible for them.

To do this, you are looking at government funding, which becomes an enormous political tangle, because you want a national initiative, but schools are locally controlled.

And even assuming you can provide a reader for $100, where do you get content? I'm willing to bet the vast majority of the textbooks used aren't in any ebook format.

This may start to become feasible when ebooks and ebook readers grow beyond being a niche market, but I don't see that occuring near term.
______
Dennis

I guess you really do not see the potential benefits of Amazon support such a program. Run a Google search ans see exactly how much companies like Amazon donate to charity every year...10's of MILLIONS and they are always looking for more ways to donate it to reduce their taxes.

Additionally all hardware vendors already offer substantial educational discounts for things such as laptops and software. It is not a far stretch to go to a $100 student version of the Kindle.

It puts their device in the hands of MILLIONS of people (kids & teachers) at essentially zero cost to schools. Many of these people will then be ingrained on the idea of an ebook. Additionally they will attain the whole grail of marketing, their brand imprinted on the minds of kids and their parents. A decent percentage will become customers of Amazon for other non-school related reading in ebook format.

I have little doubt this would be a great move for Amazon and the publishing world in general. Also I implied a SLOW initial process using PUBLIC DOMAIN classic literature as a jump-off point. My mistake was the assumption this line of thought was trivial and obvious. And that it was understood that it is FINE to use PUBLIC DOMAIN novels for this purpose. The selection is immense and can easily be left to the whim of the instructor.

This is not an idea that involves any expense to SCHOOLS at all. No government funds...NOTHING. Eventually licensing agreements would be worked out with publishers for other sorts of real textbooks. This IS the future and the sooner a move is made in this direction the better. In fact it has been far to long in developing.

The way Amazon built the Kindle it pretty much cries out for this sort of implementation. I am at a loss to understand why you feel it is a bad idea. Best we go back to each student with a slate and chalk? I mean that is the cheapest route. Textbooks are EXPENSIVE...even novels for lit classes (and these are just paperbacks but there is likely no real discount for schools and all of these are likely in the public domain, hence FREE...again THAT is the point.)

[brecklundin]

Originally Posted by lmarie

brecklundin,

I agree with you (except your comment about non-tech-savvy teachers ).

hehehehehe...you know there are some out there...but I am thinking to reduce the intrustion of device support overhead, which like you say can be a HUGE hinderance to the subject being taught.

I AM a teacher (inner city Philadelphia), and I can tell you that much of the technology so far leads to distraction rather than focus. I'm not sure how many people here have taken a group of kids to a computer lab, or rolled in a laptop cart and distributed laptops for an assignment, but I have. The internet provides endless opportunities for kids to do anything EXCEPT focus.

I'd love to see ebook devices, lightweight, portable, with student texts and literature easily downloaded to them. I think such a device would be more useful than a laptop. I know it's a pipe dream here in the US (I did read somewhere about an experiment with this in Norway though). We don't want to invest in education in this country -- at least, not in an education that will actually help our kids in the competitive global economy of the 21st century. Other countries will though.

One of my closest friends is actually president of the teachers union in our town. I am amazed at what he tells me teaching has been reduced to for the most part. If it were ANYONE else telling me this stuff I would not believe it...in fact I never believed it was this bad until someone I turst without question tells me how it is...

It is very sad people are willing to donate OLPC's for kids in other parts of the world but unwilling to perceive the benefit of such adoption here in the US...better they all have cell phones & PSP's from the age of six.

It is time and this is a low overhead way to bring some of the advantages of tech devices into the educational system. A simple and elegant system.

BTW, I ran a computer lab for a local community college for a couple years while finishing my university degrees. So I get what you mean about how difficult it can be to get a student to focus on their task vs. the distractions of the device itself.

=========

I believe it was also asked how the books would be delivered...ummmm...it's built into the design of the Kindle's. One mass mailing to the already setup book list to Amazon and xfer'd to the Kindle's via EVDO (or even pre-delivered this way for areas w/o EVDO) and viola the device is loaded and ready for the semester.

I promise you once a few schools make this work it will catch on...I do think the mention of device durability is an issue that would need to be solved in the case of student devices. Warranty issues and such needs to be addressed. But that can be worked out...actually having watched the 36" drop video on the Kindle page of Amazon pretty much tells me the Kindle is very durable already. Not sure a Sony can match this point.

[xianfox]

I don't think Amazon is the right retailer.

Scholastic is.

Given what schools spend on textbooks, a model that might work in the not to distant future would be subsidizing the cost of the readers through a school-wide textbook subscription program. Publishers would still charge roughly the same amount per book, but cutting printing out of the process and delivering them electronically to digital readers would be able to bring the cost of those readers to near zero after 3 to 5 years. Plus the school benefits from textbooks that are updated each year.

I look at the volume of books my 6th grade daughter lugs back and forth to school and feel guilty about the massive library I'm carrying in my coat pocket on my Iliad.

Something needs to be done here.