"... and please switch off all electronic devices."

[Katti's Cat]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

Corporations are "legal persons", but again unlike other parts of the world their rights are severely restricted. A corporation does not have gender, for example and hence cannot sue for discrimination against it on those grounds, or apply the castle law, since that was only and specifically vested in males. Once more, bad example.

Airlines can only refuse insofar as they comply with all relevant law. This is a far cry from say... "go away, blackie", which you are claiming they could apply, if they could refuse service on any grounds. That age is, rightly, long past and it's disgusting when there are repeated calls for a return to that era in a thread like this! (Because that IS a direct consequence of the suggesting, and the Castle law was absolute, even to the King (in theory))

I didn't claim that airlines can refuse you entry because they don't like your nose. I just said they had the right to refuse - not on which grounds because this is not the subject of the thread and I didn't think that I had to spell it all out in detail.

The 'home & castle' example was meant to make a point - I still believe that corporations can impose rules - within the law - to anyone entering their plane.

And to misbehave on the plane is rude. That's all. If you want a legal discussion about corporations, I'm out cos that is not what I intended, nor interested in at this stage - and not being a lawyer makes it rather difficult for me anyway.

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

And I have not suggested "putting flight attendants to the test", I don't know who the heck you're replying to there, but it's not me.

My point in my first post was: don't be rude to flight attendants they are doing their job.

You took it and dragged the corporations and their behaviour into the mix - sure I might have used some not so great examples but I still think they were sufficient to make my point (I didn't intend to go to court with them).

You have so far said nothing that would convince me to not switch off my device. If I am being asked to switch it off I will - no reason to make trouble or being rude.

And I didn't say that YOU are being rude to the flight attendant. I just said that not following their instructions / request is rude.

[DawnFalcon]

The "home and castle" example is really quite specific, and has an absolutist and bluntly sexist meaning. And the grounds they can refuse you on are entirely relevant when the claim is about their having an absolute right to refuse service, as you stated.

To now go back and state "within the law" is evading the point. You brought up the entire issue, and now I'm going to press it, because you're evading. Calling for unqualified rights to refuse service is not nice, and while I'm certainly not accusing you of being a member of one yourself...but it's the casual usage of that type of language which encourages the "social groups" (like, oh, the BNP) who want it back!

(Unless you are of course, in which case Kish Mein Touchess)

And again, I don't know who the HECK you're talking to with the flight attendant nonsense, it's annoying seeing it in your posts as if you were. And you bitched about politeness! I never suggested I would be, so you cannot possibly be referring to me.

[astra]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

EL AL Flight Mid December 2005 Landing in Tel Aviv:

As the EL AL plane touched down at Ben Gurion Airport the voice of the captain came on: “Please remain seated with your seat belts fastened until the plane has come to a complete stop and the seat belt signs have been turned off. We also wish to remind you that using cell phones is strictly prohibited.”

Pause

He continues: “To those of you who are seated we wish you a Merry Christmas and hope you enjoy your stay…and to those of you standing the aisles and talking on your cell phones we wish you a Happy Hanukah and welcome home.”

[astra]

Originally Posted by Katti's Cat

I still believe that corporations can impose rules - within the law - to anyone entering their plane

Within the law.
Physics law?
We have already followed blindly(that is what you advise us to do) one law. You cannot fly when there is a volcanic ash in the air. Look where it got us. You cannot imagine the level of disruption it caused to Europe and how many people suffered, just because we blindly followed a law created who knows how many years ago when people understood much less of the nature of the volcanic ash and if it not enough, then the law imposed by people who generally have no clue about science.
We were just courteous and meekly complied.

The same applies to switching off mobile phones or even worse, ebook readers that essentially stay on anyway, even though you press power button.
As Lo Zeno said:

What they knew back then, was that radio signals were a largely unexplored fields. Now it isn't, and the increased knowledge has shown that many things we believed were partially exaggerated

Courtesy doesn't always work for our benefit.

[Stitchawl]

Fifteen pages of people arguing if they should obey the law or not. Unbelievable.

I wonder how many of the people arguing for keeping their electronic devices ON actually DO keep them on when flying but keep them hidden from the cabin crew?

Stitchawl

[Sweetpea]

Originally Posted by Stitchawl

Fifteen pages of people arguing if they should obey the law or not. Unbelievable.

I wonder how many of the people arguing for keeping their electronic devices ON actually DO keep them on when flying but keep them hidden from the cabin crew?

Stitchawl

Well, that's not exactly true... It started out with the question if an e-ink reader should be turned off, then moved on to mobile phones and after then, no idea...


I didn't "turn off" my BeBook Mini. I didn't really hide it neither. I just never took it out of my bag. It was locked. When I was asked to turn off my digital camera (no phone, or anything, simply a camera), I turned it back on once the stewardess was seated for landing.

I would never use my phone, nor turn it on a plane, unless it has a flight modus. Then I would turn it off when asked and turn it on when allowed again.

[astra]

Originally Posted by Stitchawl

Fifteen pages of people arguing if they should obey the law or not. Unbelievable.

I wonder how many of the people arguing for keeping their electronic devices ON actually DO keep them on when flying but keep them hidden from the cabin crew?

Stitchawl

My mobile phone, camera and netbook are all turned off the moment I either leave home or enter Departures.
However, I always read on my Sony Reader during take off or landing, unless stewardess asks me to turn it off. Sometimes, they see me reading but say nothing, while they ask other people to switch off other types of gadgets. I believe some of them know about futileness of blanking off eInk screen

[Cyberman tM]

Originally Posted by astra

The same applies to switching off mobile phones or even worse, ebook readers that essentially stay on anyway, even though you press power button.

Which are those?
And why do they stay on all the time? Isn't that a waste of battery? I'm quite certain my eBook is off when I turn it off.

[Stitchawl]

Originally Posted by Sweetpea

Well, that's not exactly true... It started out with the question if an e-ink reader should be turned off, then moved on to mobile phones and after then, no idea...

You are absolutely correct! I made a mistake.

Only 12 pages of people arguing if they should obey the law or not. Unbelievable.

Stitchawl

[tompe]

Originally Posted by Sweetpea

I didn't "turn off" my BeBook Mini. I didn't really hide it neither. I just never took it out of my bag. It was locked. When I was asked to turn off my digital camera (no phone, or anything, simply a camera), I turned it back on once the stewardess was seated for landing.

I would never use my phone, nor turn it on a plane, unless it has a flight modus. Then I would turn it off when asked and turn it on when allowed again.

Since a camera is similar to a phone in flight mode I do not get why you break the rules by turning on the camera but respect them when turning off your phone in flight mode?

[Sweetpea]

Originally Posted by Cyberman tM

Which are those?
And why do they stay on all the time? Isn't that a waste of battery? I'm quite certain my eBook is off when I turn it off.

I'm certain my ebook is off when I don't turn a page... I think it wastes more energy to keep turning it on and off than it is to lock the keyboard.

Originally Posted by tompe

Since a camera is similar to a phone in flight mode I do not get why you break the rules by turning on the camera but respect them when turning off your phone in flight mode?

Because a phone is a phone and a camera is a camera. Also, even when my work phone is on flight modus, it does interfere with my sound system. I never heard that camera make any interference with my sound system...

(the reason I did turn on that phone was because I wanted to use the MP3 player on it. Turned it off rather quickly and decided I never wanted a phone that also was a MP3 player... so, I only wrote it for the sake of argument... When we went this month, I turned my phone off at the airport and only turned it on when I reached my final destination, that included a car drive...)

[bookoffers]

Originally Posted by ChrisC333

I would turn it off out of courtesy - i.e. consideration for the staff and other passengers.

The staff really don't have the time, or probably the expertise either, to go round and assess every device on a case by case basis. Even if your particular device may not be dangerous you can still be causing other passengers unnecessary stress by leaving it on.

i agree!! just a common sense to all ...better think of the safetiness first..

[DawnFalcon]

Originally Posted by astra

I believe some of them know about futileness of blanking off eInk screen

Yes, because of devices like the eFlybook, which have landing maps, the correct forms and so on, a lot of aircrew are aware of ereaders.


Stitchawl - So, what law precisely are you referring to? Cite.

[pricecw]

Originally Posted by Sweetpea

I'm certain my ebook is off when I don't turn a page... I think it wastes more energy to keep turning it on and off than it is to lock the keyboard.



Because a phone is a phone and a camera is a camera. Also, even when my work phone is on flight modus, it does interfere with my sound system. I never heard that camera make any interference with my sound system...

I really doubt that any device is off when not turning a page, the biggest evidence is the page turn rate. I think they are in a deep sleep mode, but one that will respond in a very short time, but it is still responsive to interrupts etc.

If it was truly off, each page turn would require the boot time, the book load time, and then the page display time, not the page time. Even if it was at a very low power state (main ASSP off, DDR in self refresh, small uC listening for interrupts to wake everything up), the page turn rate would be too much for most people. In general, the main ASSP will be powered, clocks to unneeded systems might be shut down (depends on the ASSP vendor), CPU clock may be stopped/stalled (ARM is very good in this regard), and the DDR subsystem will be up and running. This allows for a fairly quick page turn, while getting by on a small amount of power.

Your camera is like any other digital device, when it is on, and especially when you are taking pictures, it can easily leak EM interference, no different from the flight crew passing and you turning on a netbook (generally the same basic subsystem in the two). The processors, memory, display systems are very similar between a camera/netbook/PDA/ebook/cell phone.

--Carl

definitions:
ASSP -- Application Specific Standard Product
DDR -- Dual Data Rate RAM
uC -- microcontroller

[astra]

Originally Posted by Cyberman tM

Which are those?
And why do they stay on all the time? Isn't that a waste of battery? I'm quite certain my eBook is off when I turn it off.

Sony Reader is "always on" unless you engage a complete shut down. After that, it takes about 40 seconds to start up and it eats up a lot of energy.
When you use a power button on Sony Reader (and Kindle I think), you put it into "hold" mode. It clears the screen and makes it impossible to use buttons, otherwise it keeps on running as usual. Any ebook reader, AFAIK, continues to use battery and runs in between page turns. It just doesn't need any power to keep up the text on the screen, but it needs energy to run the OS on the background, so each time time you press on the button "next page", it takes only 1 second to turn the pages vs. 40-45 seconds