04-27-2010, 12:25 PM | #196 | |
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04-27-2010, 12:38 PM | #197 | |||||
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Firstoff, I would like to thank TimS for posting a bunch of studies. It shows that there are extremely rare cases where electronics might affect instrumentation, but at least gives some slight basis for rules.
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Since most devices are quite limited in the frequencies that they can transmit, things become much easier. Quote:
And given the low probabilities shown in these studies, I think that we already have reasons why the rule is not worth even the time it takes to turn the devices off. Quote:
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It took 15 minutes and taking a picture before we got through with it. Taking the picture was risky, because we could have gotten pulled aside for doing it for not obeying Customs officials. But they were not familiar with the technology and so wanted to stick to an archaic rule. |
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04-27-2010, 01:08 PM | #198 | ||
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Sigh. These devices are on now. There is one case of an air accident where mobile phones were possibly associated, and the accident review found otherwise. (Unless you count the United 93 flight crash as "caused by mobile phones"...which is true in some ways but utterly disingenuous as a claim even so). The disaster situations simply haven't happened, and aircraft are flying every day in Europe with mobiles being used in flight. Sigh again. Last edited by DawnFalcon; 04-27-2010 at 01:12 PM. |
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04-27-2010, 03:51 PM | #199 |
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Yes, but what I am saying is, the testing isn't designed to catch everything. The rules for consumer devices don't require it, so it isn't always done. And when you do catch one, a FW change can change the emissions from the device.
For example, continue the previous train of thought. The stub at 10MHz, the radiated EM from that is blocked by the connector, at 50MHz, it shoots through. That isn't normally caught in testing. The big thing about the rules, they are in place for seeing you safely from point A to point B. If you are inconvenienced for a brief time during take-off and landing, the rules don't care, since the goal is safe delivery of hundreds of people. To remove such restrictions, someone needs to convince the rule makers the potential risk is worth removing the inconvenience. In Europe, are the phones allowed to be used during takeoff and landing? I agree, I don't think the likelihood is high that they will cause a problem, but I'm not the one that has to agree to remove the restrictions, I'm just pointing out that EM is not as easy as some here want to believe. If I am reading the normal specs of the ASSPs driving most e-readers, I think we are dealing with at least a dozen fundamental frequencies in the device, and if it has good power management, probably many more than that. --Carl |
04-27-2010, 03:57 PM | #200 | |
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And yes, you've identified lax procedures in testing for EM, which need fixing.. |
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04-27-2010, 05:34 PM | #201 |
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I line my hats with aluminum foil to block satellite transmissions from the ADA. They implant receivers when they fill cavities.
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04-27-2010, 05:57 PM | #202 |
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@DawnFalcon: The thing about eink readers is that they are essentially in an "off" state if you aren't changing pages. So you are in compliance and won't go to jail for having it in the condition you have stated, because you are in compliance.
I can't speak to any other reasons you might have to go to jail, though. Last edited by pshrynk; 04-27-2010 at 05:57 PM. Reason: Clearing up confusion from simulposting. |
04-27-2010, 09:18 PM | #203 |
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Rather sad to read through this thread - dam, courtesy seems to be well and truely dying.
When I fly it's usually longhaul. So switching off my reader for the half hour either side really doesn't matter all that much. And yes, I think it's not necessary having been on flights were nearly every passenger happily was talking on the mobile phones and we didn't crash (obviously ). Nevertheless, why put the staff through the stress? They are doing their job. It's courteous to follow their instructions. (Yep, I was raised under the old school system ). And as the thread shows, no one really knows if it does harm or not - I am not talking about the ONE reader you might use, but the 300-400 devices every passenger has in the pockets / bags. As someone mentioned previously: it's the airlines plane, they can impose any darn rule they want. You don't like it, stay at home or take another airline. Be nice and switch off - lot less stress for the flight attendants and the passengers around you. |
04-27-2010, 09:35 PM | #204 | |
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As to the other, I can't possibly comment. Katti's Cat - If you want politeness, don't repeat the lapdog corporate mastery nonsense. It's seriously annoying to Europeans, we don't always let corporations ran rampant over our rights... Last edited by DawnFalcon; 04-27-2010 at 09:38 PM. |
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04-27-2010, 09:41 PM | #205 |
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Well, I am European too - and being polite doesn't hurt me as much as people who think that their individual rights come before the convenience of the crowd. Don't you English believe in the old 'my home is my castle' saying. So why do you think that you can do as you please in other people's places/homes? That's just rude.
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04-27-2010, 10:18 PM | #206 |
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That saying does not apply to corporate domains. It came about because of a specific old English law which related to the (male) master of the house having the legal right at one time to determine if someone could enter or not at only his discretion. It has nothing to do with corporations (which are of course only a legal fiction and cannot exercise the right, not being male...).
Sorry, not helping your case there. Last edited by DawnFalcon; 04-27-2010 at 10:21 PM. |
04-27-2010, 10:27 PM | #207 |
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So you are saying that you can do what you please on a plane that is not yours?
Seems you have a problem with corporations - sure, they aren't all that flash - but I still think that not following instructions on their planes is rude. I am not arguing the point of them being right or wrong , good or evil. I am just saying that putting flight attendants to the test during flight is RUDE. They are doing their job and anyone being rude to them is addressing their gripe with the corporation at the wrong place. And Corporations are considered legal persons - so while the 'my home is my castle' rule is not totally applicable , legally it would be. As far as I know, any airline company has the right to refuse you entry to the plane / flight. |
04-27-2010, 10:45 PM | #208 |
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Corporations are "legal persons", but again unlike other parts of the world their rights are severely restricted. A corporation does not have gender, for example and hence cannot sue for discrimination against it on those grounds, or apply the castle law, since that was only and specifically vested in males. Once more, bad example.
Airlines can only refuse insofar as they comply with all relevant law. This is a far cry from say... "go away, blackie", which you are claiming they could apply, if they could refuse service on any grounds. That age is, rightly, long past and it's disgusting when there are repeated calls for a return to that era in a thread like this! (Because that IS a direct consequence of the suggesting, and the Castle law was absolute, even to the King (in theory)) And I have not suggested "putting flight attendants to the test", I don't know who the heck you're replying to there, but it's not me. Last edited by DawnFalcon; 04-27-2010 at 10:55 PM. |
04-27-2010, 10:50 PM | #209 | |
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Some of them are in effect off, however, this is not an accurate blanket statement. It is possible to actually have the system off and a page displayed with e-ink, but I don't think most of the readers do that, I think most go into a deep sleep (not quite off), and some go to a lower power but not sleep state. So again, you are asking the rule makers to trust users to actually know the state of their device and they will know if it is off, almost off, or still active. BTW, most even in a deep sleep state, memory clocks will be active (lowest power state would be DDR in self refresh mode and the system powered down). I think that is good info on the Europe cell phone, I think the discussion has been take-off/landing so that follows the same type of rules. I have heard in the past, that in the US the restriction on in air cell usage was to restrict the overload to the towers, where a single phone would be seen by way too many cells. I think that is outdated with current tech though, so I imagine the rule for in flight usage is now down to the momentum to change the rule more than anything. --Carl |
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04-27-2010, 11:00 PM | #210 |
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Pricew - And how precisely are they going to detect the reader? Sure, it might be running at 1Mhz, you'll need to jam a hand-held scanner right into the bag to detect it though. And flight attendants don't carry those (since none are certified for use on aircraft, ha!)
And no, I am certainly not "asking" the "rulemakers" that. I've repeatedly stated in this thread I want more stringent testing of both devices and aircraft shielding! |
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