Seriously thoughtful How do you plan to prove you are a citizen?

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by wodin

There has been a concerted and re-occurring effort in California to pass legislation to issue driver’s licenses to everyone regardless of immigration status. Should such a travesty actually pass, would that mean that Arizona could refuse to honor CA driver’s licenses as proof of immigration status?

I'm not sure I see what the connection is between driving licences and immigration status? In the UK, when you apply for a driving licence, you have to prove that "you are you", but you can do that with any document that has your name on it - eg an electrcity bill; there's certainly no check that you are a British citizen, and nor would there be, because you don't need to be a British citizen to have a UK driving licence.

[Stitchawl]

Right now, any US citizen can apply for the new "Passport Card," a 'smart card' photo ID with your passport information on it.
http://travel.state.gov/passport/ppt...card_3926.html
I picked up one when I had to renew my regular passport. Driver's license size with photo and signature, but with an embedded micro-chip.

With the implementation of the Patriot Act, a passport or birth certificate is often required now to cross back into the US from Canada or Mexico. In the past, all that was needed was a driver's license or birth certificate. The new "Passport Card" removes all crossing problems without the need to carry a full sized passport.

On a less-than-funny note, when trying to write a check in a store, the clerk wouldn't accept my regular passport (extra sets of pages added because of so much travel) as valid ID, insisting instead on seeing a credit card with no photo at all!

Most Americans are NOT aware of the move afoot to implement border checks from state to state. This is being kept VERY quiet as it meanders through the halls of democratic abuses, but the first balloting on the issue has already been held. It was sent back down for re-working. I'm guessing (and ONLY guessing that it will become law withing the next 5-10 years, with the new passport cards being required to move from state to state. After all... national security is at risk... People will NOT be required to apply for them. (That would be too much like a totalitarian regime.) But they will not be able to travel from one state to another without them...

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin

To be honest... I never run with scissors.

Stitchawl

[Stitchawl]

Originally Posted by ardeegee

and I would think that most Americans have traveled outside their home state before.

Better check those stats. Most Americans have never been more than 200 miles away from where they were born, unless they served in the Military.

Stitchawl

[bevdeforges]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I'm not sure I see what the connection is between driving licences and immigration status? In the UK, when you apply for a driving licence, you have to prove that "you are you", but you can do that with any document that has your name on it - eg an electrcity bill; there's certainly no check that you are a British citizen, and nor would there be, because you don't need to be a British citizen to have a UK driving licence.

Increasingly in the US the states are requiring you to prove your citizenship or immigration status as well as just your resident status when you apply for a driver's license. However, most states still insist that anyone moving to the state must get a local (i.e. state) license within 10 to 30 days of taking up residence in the state. A few states have decided that it's better to get drivers registered (among other things to make sure they have insurance) than to play immigration patrol - but the federal government is trying to fix that.

One wonders, however, how an Arizona policeman would deal with the issue of an "obvious" foreigner with a valid driving license. Will they now require the states to indicate on driving licenses whether the person has their US citizenship or not? Or will they just take it on faith that if the state of XYZ issued a license, that the person's immigration status is in order?

[GeoffC]

Originally Posted by ShortNCuddlyAm

DISCLAIMER: I know the OP is about the States, but it's a hot issue in the UK, too.

A lot of people I know only carry a drivers licence when they know in advance they will need prove their identity (picking up parcels, reporting to the police within 7 days of being stopped for a traffic offence, that sort of thing...). I don't know anyone who carries their passport around when they're not going abroad, and most people I know don't carry the NI card around, either. An ID card here would be just one more thing to leave at home and forget where you've put it until you need it.

There are quite a lot of reasons many people in the UK don't want national ID cards - one extra thing to (not) carry around doesn't usually feature on the list

I don't even have one, neither does my wife !!

Originally Posted by vivaldirules

I intend to carry a big misspelled sign that says something like "I'm mad as hell about ______" (fill in the blank), spew obsenities, be obnoxious, chant "U. S. A." at the top of my lungs, and this will prove beyond a doubt that I'm an American citizen. So swear I.

figures ....

Originally Posted by HarryT

I'm not sure I see what the connection is between driving licences and immigration status? In the UK, when you apply for a driving licence, you have to prove that "you are you", but you can do that with any document that has your name on it - eg an electrcity bill; there's certainly no check that you are a British citizen, and nor would there be, because you don't need to be a British citizen to have a UK driving licence.

none of these REALLY proves identity....otherwise identity theft wouldn't be so easy.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Cards, shmards.

Only biometrics-based real-time ID verification will solve this dilemma. Until the world implements such a system, no ID card system will be very foolproof (even a biometric-based system won't be 100% foolproof, but it's probably as close as we'll ever get).

When you stop and think about all of the systems and economies that would benefit from positive ID systems to prevent loss, theft and misappropriation of resources, it is amazing to me that more effort into developing and implementing biometrics hasn't been pushed.

Requiring cards is just a stop-gap measure, and a fairly ineffective one at that, without better counterfeiting protections.

[GeoffC]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Cards, shmards.

Only biometrics-based real-time ID verification will solve this dilemma. Until the world implements such a system, no ID card system will be very foolproof (even a biometric-based system won't be 100% foolproof, but it's probably as close as we'll ever get).

When you stop and think about all of the systems and economies that would benefit from positive ID systems to prevent loss, theft and misappropriation of resources, it is amazing to me that more effort into developing and implementing biometrics hasn't been pushed.

Requiring cards is just a stop-gap measure, and a fairly ineffective one at that, without better counterfeiting protections.

biometric systems would have to be initiated at birth, but then who would certify the identity of parents ....

[ShortNCuddlyAm]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Cards, shmards.

Only biometrics-based real-time ID verification will solve this dilemma. Until the world implements such a system, no ID card system will be very foolproof (even a biometric-based system won't be 100% foolproof, but it's probably as close as we'll ever get).

Originally Posted by GeoffC

biometric systems would have to be initiated at birth, but then who would certify the identity of parents ....

What Geoff said. It's a hole/bucket situation - how do you prove the person you're taking the fingerprints/retina scan/biometric measure of choice from is who they say they are?

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by GeoffC

biometric systems would have to be initiated at birth, but then who would certify the identity of parents ....

Why would you need to? It's the individual's identity being set, not their relationship to their parents.

Originally Posted by ShortNCuddlyAm

What Geoff said. It's a hole/bucket situation - how do you prove the person you're taking the fingerprints/retina scan/biometric measure of choice from is who they say they are?

If the card itself has the ID data, and a copy of the biometric that can be verified real-time, and is tamper-proof, a biometric scan will verify the owner of the card, and the card will provide the data. This also eliminates the need to keep a vast, Big-Brotherish database deep in a mountain or something, to hold all that data... it's all in the card, retrieved when ID is verified.

The keys are the card, which must be secure and trusted, and the ability to compare biometric data real-time to the card.

[rhadin]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

The keys are the card, which must be secure and trusted, and the ability to compare biometric data real-time to the card.

Sorry, Steve, but the key is getting Mitch McConnell to confess that this is really a Republican plot to get national identity cards implemented through the backdoor and

for the governor of Virginia to confess that this is the second step to reviving the Confederacy, the first step being his declaration of Confederate History Month.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by rhadin

Sorry, Steve, but the key is getting Mitch McConnell to confess that this is really a Republican plot to get national identity cards implemented through the backdoor and

for the governor of Virginia to confess that this is the second step to reviving the Confederacy, the first step being his declaration of Confederate History Month.

Oh, what the hell. McConnell may be doing it because he's a paranoid sob, but the fact is that verifiable identity is a Good Thing. I wouldn't want to see it happen because the country is stupid and votes based on fear and xenophobia... but I'd still rather see it happen. Because personally, I'm tired of being confused with the other Steve Jordans in this country who write bad checks, shoot men, rape women and con little old ladies out of their life savings.

As far as the Confederacy is concerned: I'd like to see him try. You thought Atlanta burned well the last time? Just you watch.

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Oh, what the hell. McConnell may be doing it because he's a paranoid sob, but the fact is that verifiable identity is a Good Thing. I wouldn't want to see it happen because the country is stupid and votes based on fear and xenophobia... but I'd still rather see it happen. Because personally, I'm tired of being confused with the other Steve Jordans in this country who write bad checks, shoot men, rape women and con little old ladies out of their life savings.

As far as the Confederacy is concerned: I'd like to see him try. You thought Atlanta burned well the last time? Just you watch.

Why? Afraid of losing control?

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

Why? Afraid of losing control?

Don't bait me... make your point, Ralph.

[Jaime_Astorga]

I am not a U.S. citizen and I am not in Arizona. But if I was, I guess I would just have to start dragging my green card around everywhere. I dunno if I'm supposed to do that now, though...

I dislike this law, anyways.

[wodin]

Originally Posted by Jaime_Astorga

I am not a U.S. citizen and I am not in Arizona. But if I was, I guess I would just have to start dragging my green card around everywhere. I dunno if I'm supposed to do that now, though...

I dislike this law, anyways.

I carry three separate Govenment furnished ID's, one from the state and two from the Federal Government. I have yet to think that "dragging" them "around everywhere" has been a burden.