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View Poll Results: Is the Darknet unethical when the book is out of print?
Yes, using the darknet is unethical. 41 19.71%
No, anything that is out of print is fair game. 142 68.27%
Not sure. 25 12.02%
Voters: 208. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-25-2010, 04:14 AM   #46
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I answered yes, but I'm no saint!
I fall in this demographic, I ashamedly state.
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Old 08-25-2010, 04:30 AM   #47
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Let me ask a related question. If you are one of those people who thinks that it is indeed ethically acceptable to illegally obtain a book that is out of print, if it did at some point come back into print, would you then buy it, even if you had no intention of ever reading it again?
Maybe. It would depend on the price (are they asking a top price, or a reasonable price) and the format (it is nicely formatted, with pictures, if applicable, or is it just a hand-scanned version where not even the basic formatting is done). I don't part from my money that easily, I do expect something in return.

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I see it as entirely different.

For example, as I've said in another thread, I don't personally believe that owning a paper book gives you some "God-given right" to the equivalent eBook. I own several different paper editions of "The Lord of the Rings", and had created a eBook version for my own personal use long before it was officially available as an eBook. But as soon as the official eBook was released, I bought it. Not because I wanted to read it (my own version is a lot better!), but because it was (in my personal code of ethics) the right thing to do.
Same here. I have replaced a lot of books already (or rather, bought the official one, but kept my version as that was better made up, proof-read, etc).
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Old 08-25-2010, 04:58 AM   #48
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If the big publishers did not try to shaft me when they "sell" me an ebook - that is, sell me a license to use a file, often on a device of their choosing - I might feel that the transgression I commit in accessing that file from somewhere else and not paying for it was more significant. As it is, I accept that downloading a file without paying for it is unethical, and the file not being available legitimately doesn't seem to me to transform the act into an ethical one either, but given that I am not striving for a life of purity, I can live with that. I can justify it, but I can't make it ethical - sometimes we just do unethical things and if swiping a file off the darknet is the worst thing that I do in my life, well, that will be OK.
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Old 08-25-2010, 10:52 AM   #49
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It occurs to me that typically a book is out of print because the publisher can't be bothered with it anymore.

So if the copyright holder doesn't care, should anyone else be expected to?

This leads me to believe that ideally the right to publish the book should revert to the author in the case where the publisher allows it to go out of print. Presumably the author still cares. And I imagine that an author could publish in eBook form an existing work at minimal cost and effort if he cared to.
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Old 08-25-2010, 11:00 AM   #50
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This leads me to believe that ideally the right to publish the book should revert to the author in the case where the publisher allows it to go out of print. Presumably the author still cares. And I imagine that an author could publish in eBook form an existing work at minimal cost and effort if he cared to.
Well, it goes back to the author today after it has been out of print a certain time. But the publishers often works around that by claiming that the book is in print. being in print is probably not well defines so you have an easy method to test it.
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Old 08-25-2010, 11:05 AM   #51
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There was some interesting research on morality which suggested that across cultures there were two broad types of view. One, that we might call "conservatives" emphasised the need to follow social rules in defining what was good/bad. The other, which one might call "liberal" (less common and more recent historically) emphasised whether individuals suffered in defining what was good/bad. An example they gave was gay marriage where the conservative view is bad (breaks the social rules), while the liberal view is good (avoids them suffering). It seemed an interesting analysis to me, and a way of trying to understand what might be going on with the opposing point of view in a moral argument.
Yes, Star Trek's Mr. Spock asked the question: "Does the good of the many out-weigh the good of the few (or the one)?"

Some say that the one-dimensional "conservative-liberal" model is a bit limited, and a two-dimensional model makes things more clear:
http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3ac.html#axis
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Old 08-25-2010, 11:31 AM   #52
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My rubbish summary was of Jonathan Haidt's work, which is more subtle than I suggested. And quite entertaining
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Old 08-25-2010, 02:12 PM   #53
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Call it what you will, using the Darknet is unethical. So is taking an extra 10 minutes of your employer's time at lunch, bringing home copy paper from work to use in your printer, using your cell phone while driving if that is against the law where you live, parking your car where you know you should NOT be parking it, even if you are 'just running in for a few minutes,' fudging on your taxes, and a host of other things that people 'rationalize' away every day.

Almost everyone has their own 2-3 little 'rule bends' that they feel are OK for them to do. It's just that some folks just don't need to rationalize them. They accept that they are violating some rule or law and call it for what it is.

When you get right down to it, Robin Hood was a criminal!

Stitchawl
I'm sure we all agree that unlawful ≠ unethical (e.g. anti-interracial marriage laws?).

I don't think it's a given that using the Darknet is necessarily unethical.

That being said, I definitely fall into that category of person who doesn't spend a lot of time trying to rationalize my 'rule bends'. I think its a personality type. Probably we're the ones who are more likely to become criminals.
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Old 08-25-2010, 03:12 PM   #54
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Yes, I had the same reaction. Just because somebody wrote a book doesn't entitle the world to read it. Most authors/publishers would like their works to be available to as many readers as possible, but they own the rights to the work, and they don't have to share it, any more than you have to share your vacation property with a homeless person. Maybe your Swiss chalet is sitting there empty and unused while some guy is freezing on the street, but that doesn't entitle him to move in.

--Maria
Actually with respect, your analogy with conventional property is seriously flawed. Once a book has been published, and is in a book store, the entire world is entitled to read it. The rights holder at that point can only control exert control over certain ways under which the work might be obtained by readers. But, for example, once the book is in a public library, anyone with borrowing rights at that Library may read that book and neither the author nor any other rights holder can restrict access to that work.

The basic problem is that the precedents of what constitutes fair use for electronic media is still somewhat fuzzy in situations like this; in large part because copyright law is still built around 18th century notions of what copyright should cover.

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Old 08-25-2010, 04:00 PM   #55
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Let me ask a related question. If you are one of those people who thinks that it is indeed ethically acceptable to illegally obtain a book that is out of print, if it did at some point come back into print, would you then buy it, even if you had no intention of ever reading it again?
Yep, I would. I *have* purchased ebooks *when* they were released although I had already downloaded darknet copies. I'm all in favor of having a 'legal' ebook library. For one thing, it's just the right thing to do if it is at all an option. For another, the *author* eventually receives *some* of that purchase price - YAY!

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Old 08-25-2010, 04:04 PM   #56
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Yes, Star Trek's Mr. Spock asked the question: "Does the good of the many out-weigh the good of the few (or the one)?"

Some say that the one-dimensional "conservative-liberal" model is a bit limited, and a two-dimensional model makes things more clear:
http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3ac.html#axis
The good of the few, or especially the one, *always* outweighs the good of the many. That does NOT preclude the option of the one, or few, from choosing to put the good of the many first in any given situation, just that it is natural and proper to put one's own needs/survival first. (Yes, nature also hardwires a priority to put one's own childrens' needs before oneself - but that can be overridden, and it may be proper to do so in some rare situations.)

Derek
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Old 08-25-2010, 04:19 PM   #57
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I'm just wondering if you'd think someone who brought a Van Gogh painting at auction would be entitled to destroy it if they wished?

I think maybe you'd say they were, but perhaps I've misunderstood.
If someone purchased a Van Gogh, they would be entitled to destroy it if they chose. They would be nuttier than a pecan orchard to do so but it would be their legal right. Would it be ethical? That's a whole 'nuther argument that could go either way.

Now if Van Gogh himself decided to destroy the painting becasue he felt it was inferior to his normal standards or didn't want to glut the market with his paintings, thus driving up the prices, he would be entitled to do so, not matter what anyone else thought. An author has the same legal and ethical right to do the same for the same reasons (or because s/he regretted the content and does not want it disiminated). A publisher has the legal right to do so if it owns the rights to a book but it would not be ethical to do so unless it was the author's intent. There's no easy answer.

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Old 08-25-2010, 04:41 PM   #58
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Actually with respect, your analogy with conventional property is seriously flawed. Once a book has been published, and is in a book store, the entire world is entitled to read it. The rights holder at that point can only control exert control over certain ways under which the work might be obtained by readers. But, for example, once the book is in a public library, anyone with borrowing rights at that Library may read that book and neither the author nor any other rights holder can restrict access to that work.
Yes, you're right. There's a big difference between physical property (what I was decribing) and intellectual property or art. My analogy would not apply there.

However, what I was trying to get at was the issue of entitlement. Some seem to think that if a piece of art was ever presented to the public for a price, that it has automatically become the permanent property of the public, and they should have access to it in perpetuity. I don't buy that. If a book is no longer in print, anyone who has previously paid for the item should have permanent access to it, ie, in your library example, the library should be able to loan the book out forever, but can they make 12 copies and loan those out, too? I would say no. If they needed more copies, they should have bought more when it was for sale; now it's too late.

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The basic problem is that the precedents of what constitutes fair use for electronic media is still somewhat fuzzy in situations like this; in large part because copyright law is still built around 18th century notions of what copyright should cover
--
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Absolutely. And this is why we keep ending up in all these philosophical discussions . The laws are hopelessly out of date with the way that "art" is presented nowadays, and many issues remain unresolved. I would like to see more cases coming up, so we can begin to understand what we do or don't own and what we're legally allowed to do with it!

--Maria

Last edited by meromana; 08-25-2010 at 05:21 PM.
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Old 08-25-2010, 04:47 PM   #59
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I don't buy that. If a book is no longer in print, anyone who has previously paid for the item should have permanent access to it, ie, in your library example, the library should be able to loan the book out forever, but can they make 12 copies and loan those out, too? I would say no. If they needed more copies, they should have bought more when it was for sale; now it's too late.
But it's OK to make copies of, say, Dickens - right? So, the problem is how we draw the boundaries in the space between things in the public domain that are already old, and stuff that's currently for sale from a living author. Most people would agree about those two extreme cases, it's how we deal with the middle that's more difficult. In my view, once an author is dead, there is little justification for copyright (perhaps a limited number of years to protect their dependents). What about orphaned works? What about stuff that's PD in one country, not another? It's all a bit of a mess, really.
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Old 08-25-2010, 04:57 PM   #60
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Yes, your'e right. There's a big difference between physical property (what I was decribing) and intellectual property or art. My analogy would not apply there.

However, what I was trying to get at was the issue of entitlement. Some seem to think that if a piece of art was ever presented to the public for a price, that it has automatically become the permanent property of the public, and they should have access to it in perpetuity. I don't buy that. If a book is no longer in print, anyone who has previously paid for the item should have permanent access to it, ie, in your library example, the library should be able to loan the book out forever, but can they make 12 copies and loan those out, too? I would say no. If they needed more copies, they should have bought more when it was for sale; now it's too late.
Well, I think to a certain extent, the sense of entitlement is justified. The Constitutional Basis for Copyright (in the United States), essentially argues that the purpose of copyright is to encourage authors to publish works so that they will ultimately enter the public domain. Up until copyright was amended to Life +50 years, this was more or less built into copyright law in the sense that rights holders had to explicitly renew copyright after a certain period ... the understanding was that copyright would only be extended on works that were still profitable enough for the rights holders to substantially benefit.

I think much of the current attitude expressed by many here is an indication that more recent copyright law has tended to ignore the primary purpose of copyright law in favor of perpetual benefits to the rights holders.

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Absolutely. And this is why we keep ending up in all these philosophical discussions . The laws are hopelessly out of date with the way that "art" is presented nowadays, and many issues remain unresolved. I would like to see more cases coming up, so we can begin to understand what we do or don't own and what we're legally allowed to do with it!

--Maria
Its a shame really, that this issue is not considered more important by more people.

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