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Old 08-04-2010, 01:25 PM   #46
HarryT
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In fairness, though, I believe they did say "no computers" in advance. The author was simply claiming that his book reader wasn't a computer.
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Old 08-04-2010, 01:29 PM   #47
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This thread is a duplicate of the thread on the same topic in the news section and they should be merged in News.
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Old 08-04-2010, 02:10 PM   #48
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I'm not a lawyer, but I would have thought there are limits to a merchant's right to refuse to serve people. But I have no idea whether this would cross those limits.

On the other hand, once you had your order you really would have the initiative. You're there, you're using your computer and the merchant would have to do something proactive to stop you if you refuse to co-operate. I'd think that would be a big step, although I suppose the police could change you with trespassing if it went that far.
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Old 08-04-2010, 02:19 PM   #49
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I'm not a lawyer, but I would have thought there are limits to a merchant's right to refuse to serve people. But I have no idea whether this would cross those limits.

On the other hand, once you had your order you really would have the initiative. You're there, you're using your computer and the merchant would have to do something proactive to stop you if you refuse to co-operate. I'd think that would be a big step, although I suppose the police could change you with trespassing if it went that far.
You can't discriminate individually and violate civil rights, but this is not such a case. A business can legally ban computers. Whether it's a smart business decision is another matter.
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Old 08-04-2010, 02:54 PM   #50
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I guess it's a simple comparison of rights. The right for you to sit at the table for as long as you please and the right for someone who's just bought their lunch to expect to be able to sit down and eat it. Personally I would think nothing of taking my lunch and just sitting at the most obviously overstayed table and, if enough room wasn't created for me, I'd just get a bit slap happy with my drink or the tomato sauce.
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Old 08-04-2010, 03:23 PM   #51
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Both sides of this discussion make interesting points and there are two sides to the story. That being said, I would choose not to patronize that particular shop and I might print out a copy of this discussion to give to them when I told them so.
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Old 08-04-2010, 04:04 PM   #52
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My response would be "I'll leave when I'm through eating/drinking, unless you are prepared to give me a refund for my sandwich/coffee." Then I'd go back to reading my book.

I'm beginning to see a category of rules in modern life that we need a good name for. Something like "Dope Rules." A Dope Rule is a rule that enforced by someone who is not trusted to act with any discretion.

For example, the rules at TSA in the airports incorporate a number of Dope Rules. How many Swiss Army pen-knives have been discarded at the security gate because the TSA employees don't have any discretion to distinguish between a knife that is a potential weapon and a knife that is barely a threat to your fingernails? How many old ladies have to creep out of their wheelchairs to go through the security gates? The answer is "All of them." Dope Rules.

This "no computer" rule is a Dope Rule. The employees don't get to decide if someone is (1) working on a laptop or (2) reading an ebook. Their employer thinks they are dopes, so they give them Dope Rules to enforce.

Sometimes - usually, in fact - there's no way to deal with someone enforcing a Dope Rule. The reason is that he is either really a dope, and therefore unable to make reasonable distinctions, or his employer is requiring him to act like a dope, and is not allowing him to make reasonable distinctions. Now and then you can simply ignore the dope, or speak to a manager (Sometimes a dope, himself.) If possible, you should give the dope an answer which says "yes" but in practice is "no." My hypothetical answer about the refund is such an answer. It changes the conversation from "you can't read an ebook" to "I am entitled to a refund." Another possibility is "I'll stop reading my book when that guy over there stops reading his <pbook or newspaper.>" And another is "I'll leave in ten minutes."

That's not to say that the laptop thing isn't a pain. I never go to the Caribou in my neighborhood because the tables are always taken up by laptoppers. Interestingly, there's another coffee shop - Intelligensia - a couple of blocks away, and the customers don't usually do the laptop thing. The biggest physical difference between the Caribou and Intelligensia is the seating arrangements. The C has the usual table and 2 chair arrangement, with three or for soft armchairs. I has only a few table/chair arrangments, the rest being sofas or wallbars. People read & talk at the I. So I have to believe that at each place, the management has thought about what kind of customers they are serving or want to serve, and set up the place to attract them.
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Old 08-04-2010, 04:26 PM   #53
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The problem comes down to the borderline cases. My 505 isn't a computer; my netbook is. But what if I have an iPad? If the rule is "no computers, but ebook readers are okay" whether or not that rule applies to me depends on what app I'm running. Do you really, really want to give the "dopes" in question the authority to look at what you're doing on your iPad in order to decide if it's permitted or not?

The bottom line, again, is rudeness: the people who feel entitled to use someone else's place of business as a free telecommuting facility for hours on end, costing the cafe owners business and goodwill, for the price of a cup of coffee. A civilized person would never dream of it; that's the action of a spoiled brat, the kid who grabs all the cake at the birthday party, and no less of a spoiled brat for all he's grown up and has a suit and a laptop. If everyone spent just half as much time in being thoughtful of others and respectful of others' rights as they do being belligerently defensive of their own, there would be a lot fewer toes being stepped on, and a lot less worry about one's own rights necessary.

P.S. If you tell a cafe owner that you're going to take your business elsewhere because they don't allow you to hog tables during the lunch rush, their response will probably be "thank you".
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Old 08-04-2010, 04:30 PM   #54
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The problem comes down to the borderline cases. My 505 isn't a computer; my netbook is. But what if I have an iPad? If the rule is "no computers, but ebook readers are okay" whether or not that rule applies to me depends on what app I'm running. Do you really, really want to give the "dopes" in question the authority to look at what you're doing on your iPad in order to decide if it's permitted or not?

The bottom line, again, is rudeness: the people who feel entitled to use someone else's place of business as a free telecommuting facility for hours on end, costing the cafe owners business and goodwill, for the price of a cup of coffee. A civilized person would never dream of it; that's the action of a spoiled brat, the kid who grabs all the cake at the birthday party, and no less of a spoiled brat for all he's grown up and has a suit and a laptop. If everyone spent just half as much time in being thoughtful of others and respectful of others' rights as they do being belligerently defensive of their own, there would be a lot fewer toes being stepped on, and a lot less worry about one's own rights necessary.
Wholeheartedly agree. Problem is, this kinda approach by a cafe owner probably will alienate even those people who aren't jerks, because they might wanna read for 15 minutes or so.
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Old 08-04-2010, 06:43 PM   #55
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No matter what solution is implemented to a problem there is almost always going to be innocent bystanders caught up and inconvenienced. No solution will be perfect.

In this case, probably around 90-95% of the problem people are computer users so the shop bans computers. Unfortunately a few ebook reading people might get caught up in the problem.

If that is an issue to you then you either decide to deal with it if the benefits of the establishment(good coffee, convenient location, etc) outweigh the perceived slight to your sensibilites or you decide to do business elsewhere if the insult outweighs the benefits.

Expecting the business establishment to implement a solution that is more to your liking is about as selfish as all those computer users who have caused the problem in the first place.

Cheers,
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Old 08-04-2010, 06:56 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by PKFFW View Post
No matter what solution is implemented to a problem there is almost always going to be innocent bystanders caught up and inconvenienced. No solution will be perfect.

In this case, probably around 90-95% of the problem people are computer users so the shop bans computers. Unfortunately a few ebook reading people might get caught up in the problem.

If that is an issue to you then you either decide to deal with it if the benefits of the establishment(good coffee, convenient location, etc) outweigh the perceived slight to your sensibilites or you decide to do business elsewhere if the insult outweighs the benefits.

Expecting the business establishment to implement a solution that is more to your liking is about as selfish as all those computer users who have caused the problem in the first place.

Cheers,
PKFFW
I doubt many businesses will take this approach. Shrug. I think we're talking about it for the hell of it, rather than expecting whatever, lol.
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Old 08-04-2010, 07:05 PM   #57
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One method might be to switch the internet off at busy periods or change the wifi password every 20 minutes. The new password could perhaps be shown on a screen at the bar. This would allow people to check their emails but also discourage people from using the coffee table as a mobile office. I don't know if software is available to do this.
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Old 08-04-2010, 07:55 PM   #58
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I can understand shops not wanting people hogging tables at lunch times, but such a blanket ban just seems like it would backfire on them, they'll lose the remote office ones they don't want, but I know if I went out at lunch to read my book while I ate my lunch and they wouldn't let me then I'd ask for a refund and go elsewhere and in the future I would avoid the place too including the other times in the week when I might be going out to lunch with a bunch of workmates.

Also, I wouldn't be surprised if some people took the time to prove the absurdness of such an absolute rule by demonstrating how easy it would be to hog a table with a paper book etc.
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Old 08-04-2010, 09:36 PM   #59
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The problem comes down to the borderline cases. My 505 isn't a computer;
It most certainly is. Just one dedicated to being an ereader.

My JetBook Light is a computer with a Linux OS.
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Old 08-04-2010, 11:40 PM   #60
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It most certainly is. Just one dedicated to being an ereader.

My JetBook Light is a computer with a Linux OS.
It depends on what your definition of "is" is. - B. Clinton.

A 505 is not really a "computer." But an iPad is. If you can routinely & easily produce documents & spreadsheets, it's a computer. That is, if you can do paperwork on it everyday and all the time.

Dedicated EBRs are computers only in the broad sense that they are interactive electronic devices. But in their normal & intended use, they are books.
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