Kindle user says Amazon remotely wiped her whole library [UPDATED: see first post] - Page 8

tompe · 10-23-2012, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

Amazon's Norway site redirects to the UK site; she apparently bought ebooks through that.

No, I do not think so. We in Sweden are not allowed to buy from UK so I would be very surprised if people in Norway was allowed to do that. We buy books from amazon.com and the books we can buy are the ones were the publisher have the right to sell to "other" countries. And that seems to be most books I want to buy but I have found some non-fiction books that I am not allowed to buy.

MarianneLombardo · 10-23-2012, 06:24 PM

On the new Kindle Paperwhite, can the Wi-Fi be turned off?

ucfgrad93 · 10-23-2012, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarianneLombardo

On the new Kindle Paperwhite, can the Wi-Fi be turned off?

Yes, the wi-fi can be turned off.

koland · 10-24-2012, 12:47 AM

You know, it's entirely possible that the problem account was the one for the Kindle she bought used (the one she then tried to get replaced).

People in the EU move around a lot and that means moving countries (the equivalent of moving to a new state in the US, as far as distance); no doubt it sent up a red flag that she originally purchased in the UK and was now trying to get a replacement in Norway. Security often closes accounts while they check out problems (I had mine closed years ago for a few days - someone had tried to hack into it, they claimed). When it happens on a weekend, you are out of luck until someone starts working on it again during the regular work week and they never comment on why it was closed anymore (I've seen several other closures discussed over the last few years, sometimes for abuse of returns, other times while they rechecked credit card details, etc).

JoeD · 10-24-2012, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tompe

No, I do not think so. We in Sweden are not allowed to buy from UK so I would be very surprised if people in Norway was allowed to do that. We buy books from amazon.com and the books we can buy are the ones were the publisher have the right to sell to "other" countries. And that seems to be most books I want to buy but I have found some non-fiction books that I am not allowed to buy.

If so, why did amazon not tell her that is the reason, instead they said it was closed due to been related to another closed account which she apparently knows nothing about.

Lutraa · 10-24-2012, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jocampo

Good luck :-)

Even if it's not fair, violating any contract or agreement won't give you the right to ask your money back. So yes, legally they can keep your money, even after taking your ebooks away.

Don't get me wrong, not saying I am not with you, just that such action will be futile.

Not sure you actually understand the legal system (in the US) here: you *always* have "the right" to ask for your money back. Whether the credit card issuing bank sides with you or not will depend on the bank's interpretation of the sales agreement between you and Amazon and the facts as the bank understands them. Contracts vary; violating terms does not necessarily mean the party at fault loses all other rights under the contract (e.g. getting their money back). In addition, even if a contract states that violations void the right to get a refund, that term may in turn violate state, local, or federal consumer protection laws. In which case it will be struck down if you complain to a court or enforcement agency.

If the bank does not agree to do a chargeback, you still have "the right" to seek redress, either through your state court system or (in the case of a contract with a binding arbitration clause) through arbitration. You may also be able to file a complaint with the credit card brand, e.g. MasterCard, VISA, or AmEx.

Vendors don't get to make up the rules, and neither do credit card issuers. One of the benefits of living in a civilized country and paying taxes for a legal system is being able to resolve contract disputes like this.

In short, please don't make sweeping statements telling other readers their attempts to get refunds are futile. Someone might actually believe you!

koland · 10-24-2012, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeD

If so, why did amazon not tell her that is the reason, instead they said it was closed due to been related to another closed account which she apparently knows nothing about.

Consider that (a) they don't know it is her calling and (b) they consider that giving additional info out to those who violate their rules gives them leverage to come back and do it again.

I suspect it's also for legal reasons (just as when you fire someone, you must be careful what you say), although it's possible that no-one in the front support area even knows (they didn't when it happened to me; but once I was able to talk to the security people and straighten it out, that's when I found out the issue).

There is no doubt a big issue with the device being from replaced UK, her being in Norway (which has no UK access, although she had access when she first bought the unit, while physically in the UK) and possibly the replacement unit (and who knows where it came from or what issues there may have been from that person's account -- replacing it seems to have triggered the issue). Glad she had it resolved (and that, like other stories of this kind, it was just overblown by those outside of the action), but I still advocate backing up your books. I've lost some of mine, over the years, due to store closures and publisher changes at stores (some, if not most, stores lost the books from your account if the publisher yanks them; that fact that Amazon doesn't is actually a big deal and hopefully will force all other retailers to follow suit) or when the store/publisher/site simply went dark.

zeb · 10-24-2012, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tompe

We in Sweden are not allowed to buy from UK

How is that legal? The EU forbids any discrimination between the countries in the EU zone, and goods and services can freely be purchased all over the EU, regardless of your address. Norway is not in the EU, but I think they are in the zone where goods and services can also be freely exchanged.

AnemicOak · 10-24-2012, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeb

How is that legal? The EU forbids any discrimination between the countries in the EU zone, and goods and services can freely be purchased all over the EU, regardless of your address. Norway is not in the EU, but I think they are in the zone where goods and services can also be freely exchanged.

Because all of the books in the UK Kindle store are licensed for the UK only? (just a guess)

Kumabjorn · 10-24-2012, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnemicOak

Because all of the books in the UK Kindle store are licensed for the UK only? (just a guess)

Indeed a likely reason, but if there is a unified market then you would think that laws regarding licensing would have changed to reflect that.

tompe · 10-24-2012, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeb

How is that legal? The EU forbids any discrimination between the countries in the EU zone, and goods and services can freely be purchased all over the EU, regardless of your address. Norway is not in the EU, but I think they are in the zone where goods and services can also be freely exchanged.

Yes, but for ebooks point of sale is in Sweden and they probably do not have the rights to sell in Sweden.

DiapDealer · 10-24-2012, 05:30 PM

It's usually not about laws. It's about distribution rights not being granted... and licensing, like mentioned above. The publisher may not have awarded anyone the distribution rights for a certain title (in ebook format) in that country. Publisher by publisher, title by title, the distribution rights/licensing are different for different countries. Just because you can buy an ebook in Norway from Amazon UK without breaking a ToS/geographic restriction, doesn't mean you can buy any ebook in Norway from Amazon UK.

montalex · 10-24-2012, 07:58 PM

I think the point that may be missed in all of this is that it is illegal for Amazon to sell certain books to those in countries where there are not publishing agreements for those particular books. It is the merchant's responsibility to place restrictions on customers to protect themselves from engaging in illegal commerce. Don't blame Amazon for this. They would love to sell as many books as they can to whomever wants them.

Although the refusal of customer service to provide details is curious...

BoldlyDubious · 10-25-2012, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by montalex

Although the refusal of customer service to provide details is curious...

Given the reason why the user was asking for details, "sinister" is maybe a better adjective...

koland · 10-25-2012, 02:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoldlyDubious

Given the reason why the user was asking for details, "sinister" is maybe a better adjective...

Actually, it was the weekend.

I doubt anyone who could explain the issue was even working (which would be the same people that could resolve it - it's more like the security/fraud dept of your credit card and from what I can tell from US Amazon, they don't work weekends or 24/7 during the week).

10-24-2012, 05:30 PM	#117
DiapDealer Grand Sorcerer Posts: 27,549 Karma: 193191846 Join Date: Jan 2010 Device: Nexus 7, Kindle Fire HD	It's usually not about laws. It's about distribution rights not being granted... and licensing, like mentioned above. The publisher may not have awarded anyone the distribution rights for a certain title (in ebook format) in that country. Publisher by publisher, title by title, the distribution rights/licensing are different for different countries. Just because you can buy an ebook in Norway from Amazon UK without breaking a ToS/geographic restriction, doesn't mean you can buy any ebook in Norway from Amazon UK. Last edited by DiapDealer; 10-24-2012 at 05:34 PM.

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10-23-2012, 06:24 PM	#107
MarianneLombardo Junior Member Posts: 2 Karma: 10 Join Date: Dec 2010 Device: Kobo WiFi	On the new Kindle Paperwhite, can the Wi-Fi be turned off?

10-24-2012, 12:47 AM	#109
koland Grand Sorcerer Posts: 8,560 Karma: 8033155 Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: TN, USA Device: kindle(all), nook, nookcolor, Sony, Kobo, epic, iphone, iPad, pc	You know, it's entirely possible that the problem account was the one for the Kindle she bought used (the one she then tried to get replaced). People in the EU move around a lot and that means moving countries (the equivalent of moving to a new state in the US, as far as distance); no doubt it sent up a red flag that she originally purchased in the UK and was now trying to get a replacement in Norway. Security often closes accounts while they check out problems (I had mine closed years ago for a few days - someone had tried to hack into it, they claimed). When it happens on a weekend, you are out of luck until someone starts working on it again during the regular work week and they never comment on why it was closed anymore (I've seen several other closures discussed over the last few years, sometimes for abuse of returns, other times while they rechecked credit card details, etc).

10-24-2012, 07:58 PM	#118
montalex Fanatic Posts: 556 Karma: 1283268 Join Date: Mar 2010 Device: KindleDX,Kindle 4, Kindle Keyboard 3G	I think the point that may be missed in all of this is that it is illegal for Amazon to sell certain books to those in countries where there are not publishing agreements for those particular books. It is the merchant's responsibility to place restrictions on customers to protect themselves from engaging in illegal commerce. Don't blame Amazon for this. They would love to sell as many books as they can to whomever wants them. Although the refusal of customer service to provide details is curious...