E-Refuseniks

neilmarr · 10-29-2009, 10:56 AM

I've been campaigning for and hoping for ebooks that make sense in terms of their price for the past decade. My own small publishing house offers them at 10% of the price of our paperbacks and they make money ... even though authors are on a 40% royalty rather than hard copy 10% with us.

We are now seeing ebook reading as a possibility with all the new ereaders on the market, thanks to folks like us.

But retailers are putting a spoke in ... their prices are potty!!!

I've already (against the grain) bought ebooks that cost more than their harback equivalents. But enough is enough ... when over the past week I can find nobody selling Margaret Atwood's *Year of the Flood* in ebook at anything less than double the available hardback price, I refuse to go there. I refuse to encourage such greed by becoming a customer. I refuse to embrace the counter-revolution.

We should boycot retailers who play this game. We should NOT buy their ebooks. We should say: "Sod off -- this is not what the ebook ideal is about!"

Neil

Sparrow · 10-29-2009, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilmarr

We should boycot retailers who play this game. We should NOT buy their ebooks. We should say: "Sod off -- this is not what the ebook ideal is about!"

Neil

I agree!

- I think it's time to start naming and shaming.

Who are worst the rip-off merchants in publishing?

jasonkchapman · 10-29-2009, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilmarr

We should boycot retailers who play this game. We should NOT buy their ebooks. We should say: "Sod off -- this is not what the ebook ideal is about!"

It has little or nothing to do with retailers. It has to do with publishers. Except that publishers don't really care about any kind of e-book ideal. To a for-profit publishing company, ideal would mean as many people as possible paying as much as possible for as many of the company's titles as possible which are produced for as low a cost as possible.

Unfortunately, most publishers haven't figured out that selling reasonably priced e-books is an excellent formula for getting there. As a reader, it's easy to patronize the ones who have, or are at least on the right track, and avoid the ones who haven't.

Until an author you want to read signs with one of those other publishers. That's where your "e-book ideal" comes into play. You can either uphold your ideal and not read it, or you can sell out and buy it anyway.

neilmarr · 10-29-2009, 11:35 AM

Publisher profits on all forms of books sold are surprisingly small, Jason. Retailers are to blame here. They take the biggest slice of the pie and want the biggest pie possible. Quite honestly, there's hardly a publisher in the world (apart from repeat-order school/colege textbook merchants) who would not benefit by going entirely ebook. For instance, before Amazon became also a hardware manufacturer, printer and publisher, they sold my own wee company's ebooks ... but at their price! They slapped on a cover price of about two-thirds of paperback when we wanted them to go at ten percent. The hard in-house work of producing a book is covered by treebook sales and there's little expense involved in the production and dstribution of ebook versions. It will be some time yet before publishers need to load ebook prices to cover treebook losses. Don't blame publishers; blame grubby-fingered retailers. There is no excuse for charging $35 for the ebook copy of a book that sells for one third of that in hardback (HARDBACK -- not paperback) unless you're a retailer looking to protect his shelves. N

sony_fox · 10-29-2009, 11:49 AM

Don't just moan about it on here.

CONTACT PEOPLE.

Tell the publisher why you aren't buying their book. Tell the retailer. I fyou can find contact details for the author, politely mention to them, why you a dedicated fan who would love to read their work, isn't buying their book.

Retailers and Publishers certainly have easily available contact details. They are avid for feedback on how to gain more sales.

LET THEM KNOW.

(and as anedata, I've done so, had timely responses, and action, and thanks from an author for helping to provide the impetus to get a problem solved)

dmikov · 10-29-2009, 11:53 AM

What do you have in mind exactly?
Cause just not buying overpriced books is what I have been doing all along.

You want petitions, blogs, lists?

Hellmark · 10-29-2009, 12:22 PM

I am in the same mindset. I have a $5 price limit normally (although I have got the Dark Tower books for ~$7 each, but those are often two or three times as much content when compared to most books). Since it is more or less a lease, and not actual ownership of a copy (which we'd have rights of first sale, etc if it were not a lease). Now, I'm cheap when it comes to paper books anyway (I read so much, I'd go broke in a hurry), but especially so when it comes to ebooks, due to the additional restrictions we have to put up with.

Blue Tyson · 10-29-2009, 12:41 PM

An enterprising code writer if people chipped in and delivered all the contact people could set up a form to send such complaint letters, with a little customisation.

sony_fox · 10-29-2009, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Cause just not buying overpriced books is what I have been doing all along.
You want petitions, blogs, lists?

Nothing so organised - and nothing that the publishers/retailers won't see. Email the publisher, email the retailer. Tell them they've lost a sale today.

If you don't buy a book, and don't tell them, they don't know, they'll just assume author x isn't selling very well.

If you tell them, there's a chance they'll note the interest in author x, and consider the availablity, demand, and pricing policy of ebooks. OK 1 letter from 1 reader can't do that much. So email them everytime you don't buy a book because it's too expensive, or the wrong format. At the very least you're supporting your authors, and helping them to get future books published.

Kali Yuga · 10-29-2009, 01:06 PM

At the moment, it is unclear how much money retailers are actually making off of ebooks. So it's a bit odd to declare them to be the Bad Guy -- primarily because you want to pay less for ebooks.

For example, the wholesale price the publishers are charging for new books that are in hardcover is the same for the ebook, around $10-$12. So Amazon, B&N, Walmart etc treat these books as loss leaders, either in paper or electronic form. Several retailers are selling public domain books for free, which is also a loss given the cost of bandwidth and other overhead.

While margins are thin for publishers, they are not exactly thrilled by the idea that shifting to electronic format will devalue their work. They aren't even really on board with the $10 price point.

There's also the issue of competition. At the moment there are 3 major ebook retailers (Amazon, B&N, Sony) and several secondary competitors (e.g. Scribd). I have no doubt that if any of these thought they could gain a sustainable competitive advantage by reducing prices, they would absolutely do so.

And last but not least, in most cases ebooks are really only cost 10-12% less to make and distribute than paper books; the big sellers, which one might assume would generate a lot of the income, are subject to the biggest price pressures and often end up as loss leaders anyway. So it doesn't make much sense to expect ebook prices to be, say, 50% lower than paper. It just doesn't add up.

By the way, keep in mind that Baen's $6 ebooks a) don't go through a retailer, and b) are basically pulp sci fi, so not as expensive to produce as, say, the latest Dan Brown thriller or a researched book on the financial crisis.

I don't have a problem with the $10 price point... as long as everyone gets their due.

Jack Tingle · 10-29-2009, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

By the way, keep in mind that Baen's $6 ebooks a) don't go through a retailer, and b) are basically pulp sci fi, so not as expensive to produce as, say, the latest Dan Brown thriller or a researched book on the financial crisis.

I was with you up until "...not as expensive to produce as, say, the latest Dan Brown thriller..." I've read Dan Brown, and let me tell you, Time of the Demon, Dan Brown is no Deanna Durgin. (No offense to Ms. Durgin.) They may charge more for Brown, and he (hopefully) gets a generous advance, but I doubt it cost more to write, edit, or produce than the average Baen paperback.

Regards,
Jack Tingle

Kali Yuga · 10-29-2009, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Tingle

I was with you up until "...not as expensive to produce as, say, the latest Dan Brown thriller..."

Heh.... Well I won't discuss the quality of Mr Brown's work, but his royalties now will make his books more expensive for the publisher, and I'm sure the associated costs are also larger, especially legal costs. Same for any big seller like King, Danielle Steele etc.

As far as I know, none of the writers published by Baen are requesting / demanding /getting the same kinds of advances and royalties as a best-selling author, and hopefully they don't get sued as often either.

Crusader · 10-29-2009, 03:11 PM

I can't see how ebooks could possibly cost only a small amount less than a paper book to produce and distribute. The costs of creating a physical copy would definitely be far higher than that of the ebook.

Ebooks should basically be seen as an added revenue stream. All the expensive work (editing etc.) would be done in the process of creating an actual print book. The ebook uses the digital version of that final manuscript and the cost related to distributing it digitally would have to be negligible.

I think the people to target with complaints are the authors themselves. In the end they stand to gain the most from having an effective distribution channel for their ebooks. They should have the right to decide how that distribution is done, and hopefully most of them will be more than happy to distribute their works to a global audience unlike the idiotic geo-restrictions the publisher slap on ebooks.

delphidb96 · 10-29-2009, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilmarr

I've been campaigning for and hoping for ebooks that make sense in terms of their price for the past decade. My own small publishing house offers them at 10% of the price of our paperbacks and they make money ... even though authors are on a 40% royalty rather than hard copy 10% with us.

We are now seeing ebook reading as a possibility with all the new ereaders on the market, thanks to folks like us.

But retailers are putting a spoke in ... their prices are potty!!!

I've already (against the grain) bought ebooks that cost more than their harback equivalents. But enough is enough ... when over the past week I can find nobody selling Margaret Atwood's *Year of the Flood* in ebook at anything less than double the available hardback price, I refuse to go there. I refuse to encourage such greed by becoming a customer. I refuse to embrace the counter-revolution.

We should boycot retailers who play this game. We should NOT buy their ebooks. We should say: "Sod off -- this is not what the ebook ideal is about!"

Neil

Y'know... I just don't *GET* you people! Haven't you figured it out yet?

It's *NOT* about giving you enjoyment or learning through the process of reading. Nosirree-Bob! It's about creating a long-term, stable employment program for those who work in the Publishing industry! (And authors of course, although there *are* those who insist that we really don't need authors as everything that can be written already *has* been written - publishers simply need to write a series of programs to change the names and locations to "create" 'new' stories.

)

Get with the program!

Derek

Kali Yuga · 10-29-2009, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crusader

I can't see how ebooks could possibly cost only a small amount less than a paper book to produce and distribute.

Well, I'll try to explain.

Most books do not break even, let alone make a profit. Similar to the music business, the publishers make their money off of the blockbuster books, which in turn subsidize the dozens of less popular books, any of which could become huge for a myriad of unknown and unpredictable reasons. (Or, the publisher just likes releasing a certain type of book, regardless of the profits.)

So, most of the costs are the writer's advance and royalties; editing costs; proofreading; cover and layout costs; legal costs; accounting; PR and marketing; website costs; payment processing; management overhead; and of course, taxes.

EBooks pretty much only save you a few printing and distribution costs. And publishers still have to pay that cost, at least until ebooks take over enough of the market that many titles can be fulfilled via POD instead of by doing huge up-front print runs.

The only instance where the ebook is relieved of most or all of the above costs are public domain books. Which are, in fact, usually free. Funny how that works out.

I.e., the popular misconception that "ebooks cost nothing" merely because they're in a digital format is incorrect.

Savvy?

10-29-2009, 10:56 AM	#1
neilmarr neilmarr Posts: 7,216 Karma: 6000059 Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Monaco-Menton, France Device: sony	E-Refuseniks I've been campaigning for and hoping for ebooks that make sense in terms of their price for the past decade. My own small publishing house offers them at 10% of the price of our paperbacks and they make money ... even though authors are on a 40% royalty rather than hard copy 10% with us. We are now seeing ebook reading as a possibility with all the new ereaders on the market, thanks to folks like us. But retailers are putting a spoke in ... their prices are potty!!! I've already (against the grain) bought ebooks that cost more than their harback equivalents. But enough is enough ... when over the past week I can find nobody selling Margaret Atwood's Year of the Flood in ebook at anything less than double the available hardback price, I refuse to go there. I refuse to encourage such greed by becoming a customer. I refuse to embrace the counter-revolution. We should boycot retailers who play this game. We should NOT buy their ebooks. We should say: "Sod off -- this is not what the ebook ideal is about!" Neil

10-29-2009, 11:49 AM	#5
sony_fox Zealot Posts: 109 Karma: 84 Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Manchester Device: Kobo Auroa H2O	Action Don't just moan about it on here. CONTACT PEOPLE. Tell the publisher why you aren't buying their book. Tell the retailer. I fyou can find contact details for the author, politely mention to them, why you a dedicated fan who would love to read their work, isn't buying their book. Retailers and Publishers certainly have easily available contact details. They are avid for feedback on how to gain more sales. LET THEM KNOW. (and as anedata, I've done so, had timely responses, and action, and thanks from an author for helping to provide the impetus to get a problem solved)

10-29-2009, 12:41 PM	#8
Blue Tyson Blue Captain Posts: 1,595 Karma: 5000236 Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Australia Device: Kindle Keyboard 3G,Huawei Ideos X3,Kobo Mini	An enterprising code writer if people chipped in and delivered all the contact people could set up a form to send such complaint letters, with a little customisation. Last edited by Blue Tyson; 11-04-2009 at 01:31 AM.

10-29-2009, 11:35 AM	#4
neilmarr neilmarr Posts: 7,216 Karma: 6000059 Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Monaco-Menton, France Device: sony	Publisher profits on all forms of books sold are surprisingly small, Jason. Retailers are to blame here. They take the biggest slice of the pie and want the biggest pie possible. Quite honestly, there's hardly a publisher in the world (apart from repeat-order school/colege textbook merchants) who would not benefit by going entirely ebook. For instance, before Amazon became also a hardware manufacturer, printer and publisher, they sold my own wee company's ebooks ... but at their price! They slapped on a cover price of about two-thirds of paperback when we wanted them to go at ten percent. The hard in-house work of producing a book is covered by treebook sales and there's little expense involved in the production and dstribution of ebook versions. It will be some time yet before publishers need to load ebook prices to cover treebook losses. Don't blame publishers; blame grubby-fingered retailers. There is no excuse for charging $35 for the ebook copy of a book that sells for one third of that in hardback (HARDBACK -- not paperback) unless you're a retailer looking to protect his shelves. N

10-29-2009, 11:53 AM	#6
dmikov Addict Posts: 257 Karma: 960 Join Date: Dec 2006 Device: REB1200; REB2150; Sony 500/350; EZReader; IREX DR800SG; Nook/Color	What do you have in mind exactly? Cause just not buying overpriced books is what I have been doing all along. You want petitions, blogs, lists?

10-29-2009, 12:22 PM	#7
Hellmark Wizard Posts: 2,549 Karma: 3799999 Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: O'Fallon, Missouri, USA Device: Nokia N800, PRS-505, Nook STR Glowlight, Kindle 3	I am in the same mindset. I have a $5 price limit normally (although I have got the Dark Tower books for ~$7 each, but those are often two or three times as much content when compared to most books). Since it is more or less a lease, and not actual ownership of a copy (which we'd have rights of first sale, etc if it were not a lease). Now, I'm cheap when it comes to paper books anyway (I read so much, I'd go broke in a hurry), but especially so when it comes to ebooks, due to the additional restrictions we have to put up with.

10-29-2009, 01:06 PM	#10
Kali Yuga Professional Contrarian Posts: 2,045 Karma: 3289631 Join Date: Mar 2009 Device: Kindle 4 No Touchie	At the moment, it is unclear how much money retailers are actually making off of ebooks. So it's a bit odd to declare them to be the Bad Guy -- primarily because you want to pay less for ebooks. For example, the wholesale price the publishers are charging for new books that are in hardcover is the same for the ebook, around $10-$12. So Amazon, B&N, Walmart etc treat these books as loss leaders, either in paper or electronic form. Several retailers are selling public domain books for free, which is also a loss given the cost of bandwidth and other overhead. While margins are thin for publishers, they are not exactly thrilled by the idea that shifting to electronic format will devalue their work. They aren't even really on board with the $10 price point. There's also the issue of competition. At the moment there are 3 major ebook retailers (Amazon, B&N, Sony) and several secondary competitors (e.g. Scribd). I have no doubt that if any of these thought they could gain a sustainable competitive advantage by reducing prices, they would absolutely do so. And last but not least, in most cases ebooks are really only cost 10-12% less to make and distribute than paper books; the big sellers, which one might assume would generate a lot of the income, are subject to the biggest price pressures and often end up as loss leaders anyway. So it doesn't make much sense to expect ebook prices to be, say, 50% lower than paper. It just doesn't add up. By the way, keep in mind that Baen's $6 ebooks a) don't go through a retailer, and b) are basically pulp sci fi, so not as expensive to produce as, say, the latest Dan Brown thriller or a researched book on the financial crisis. I don't have a problem with the $10 price point... as long as everyone gets their due.

10-29-2009, 03:11 PM	#13
Crusader Space Cadet Posts: 1,180 Karma: 4030536 Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: South Africa Device: Sony PRS-T1, Cybook Opus, Kobo Glo	I can't see how ebooks could possibly cost only a small amount less than a paper book to produce and distribute. The costs of creating a physical copy would definitely be far higher than that of the ebook. Ebooks should basically be seen as an added revenue stream. All the expensive work (editing etc.) would be done in the process of creating an actual print book. The ebook uses the digital version of that final manuscript and the cost related to distributing it digitally would have to be negligible. I think the people to target with complaints are the authors themselves. In the end they stand to gain the most from having an effective distribution channel for their ebooks. They should have the right to decide how that distribution is done, and hopefully most of them will be more than happy to distribute their works to a global audience unlike the idiotic geo-restrictions the publisher slap on ebooks.

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