The Ugliest Truth - Bad Writing

[MikeB1972]

Originally Posted by Yolina

Let me set the scene for you

We are at the siege of Leningrad, the German army is advancing, the city is starving and amidst all the chaos, destruction and death, our hero emerges from the trenches in his underpants and garter belt

50 shades of warfare

sorry, please carry on

[rhadin]

Originally Posted by Joykins

The examples you give are not necessarily bad *writing* so much as bad (or no) *editing* or even proofreading. Rewriting may address some of those problems but you can't expect the author to catch everything. The recent surge in self-publishing means many lightly to not-at-all edited manuscripts are out there, and it shows. I also see this lack in online journalism. An important stage in the publishing process is being cut out and we are, alas, living with the results.

signed, former editor.

Alas, the book may well have been expertly edited but the author, who is the final arbiter of what constitutes appropriate prose, may have rejected every (or most) of the editor's suggestions. Editors are not the final word; the author is the final word. I know from experience that this happens, and I also know that even traditional publishers will often bow to the author's wishes in this regard.

No matter how you cut it, I think both the blame and responsibility entirely belong on the author and no one else.

• If the author self-edited, the author deserves the blame for the crappy book the author self-edited.
• If the author hired an incompetent editor, author deserves the blame for the crappy book because the author should have taken steps to hire a qualified, professional editor.
• If the author hired an qualified, professional editor and then rejected the editor's advice and corrections, the author deserves the blame for the crappy book because the author should have at least accepted the editor's suggestions regarding word choice, spelling, and grammar.

I see no reason to pass the buck.

[rhadin]

Originally Posted by crich70

Doesn't it come to the same thing though at least when the author self-edits their own work? Granted it is possible to miss some things as everyone is human but especially now that people can self-publish through places like Smashwords and Amazon doesn't bad editing = bad writing in some cases?

I think you (generally, not you specifically) are much too generous when equating self-editing with anything at all like professional editing (yes, there are a handful of exceptions). I think self-editing is much closer to running Word's spell checker and grammar checker than it is to what professional editors consider to be editing.

Consequently, I do not think it proper to state bad editing = bad writing. the bad editing beign referred to is not editing at all. I would add that because the final decisions regarding editing choices (i.e., acceptance/rejection of an editor's suggestions) are the author's, bad writing skills = bad editing decisions = bad writing.

[rhadin]

Originally Posted by Blossom

Because as a professional publisher they should've never Let it go to press. It's the editors' job to make sure this doesn't happen. This isn't some self published book. It's a book I paid $7 for and I expected it to be at least readable.

It is not the editor's job to make sure crap doesn't happen. The only power copyeditors have is to suggest and recommend. Dozens of times I have suggested to publishers that a book desperately needs a developmental editor and/or shouldn't be published in the present form, only to be told that it was going to be published for reason xyz, usually because the publisher didn't expect sales to be sufficient to justify the expense of a developmental editor or publication delay.

And I know personally of hundreds of instances in which authors have rejected necessary editorial changes because their "writing is perfect" and the publisher just wants the book published. Editors do not deserve the blame in this game!

[Fbone]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

So you're good to go now?

Yes, fully recovered. Thank you.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by CWatkinsNash

It wasn't you. I've seen you say similar things, but it always seemed to me there was a different mentality behind it. The individual I was referring to strikes me more as the type who read, "How Anyone Can Write an Ebook and Get Rich!" and believed it.

You've learned from it, and you already knew that most popular authors don't wake up every morning and fart out perfect prose - they have editors. I think a lot of people haven't figured that out yet.

Edited to add: I love your covers.

Cost will be a big factor too, especially for hobby writers (which would be pretty much most of them). When I read something I always send the writer a list of mistakes and sloppy sentences. I've only ever had one person tell me to bog off. He said he was dyslexic and saw it as a personal attack. Everyone else was grateful, though whether they did anything with them or not is another matter. The so-called pro-writers are the worst for fixing them.

[usuallee]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I find it amusing when people gnash their teeth over the "sheer amount of drivel" out there when it comes to self-published authors. As if there is no hope at all to find their way through to some gems. As if they have to navigate it at all.

Unless you're in the habit of blindly grabbing traditionally published books/authors on a whim, navigating the slushpile of indies is no different than how people have always populated their TBR lists: word of mouth, recommendations from friends/associates, online reviews/blogs, online reading communities, etc. And now sample chapters. Cream still rises. It's not like you're stranded in a jungle of books with no options other than "poke and hope" (any more than you've ever been, anyway).

And if you are in the habit of buying traditionally published books at complete and utter random... well then you're no stranger to the occasional piece of garbage anyway.

The idea that there's an endless morrass of indie books with absolutely no means of separating the wheat from the chaff is quite tired, and needs to be put to rest.

And hey... if you don't feel you should have to do even the slightest bit of research before trying an unknown author, then you still likely have enough traditionally vetted material to last you a lifetime anyway.

If it's "bad writing," it'll show up in the sample.

"Teeth gnasher" here. Your point is valid...but only to a certain degree. Of course there are ways to get a line on a book you may enjoy, and then to check out the sample to make certain. I am of course well versed in how to use the internet, friends and others to get recommendations. As are, I'm guessing, most participants in this forum.

But, yes, there is absolutely an "endless morass [sic]" of self published books that have no business being published, self or otherwise. Throw paid reviews, and other ways authors and their cronies game the system into the mix, and the self-published world really does seem impenetrable, and I concluded after dipping my toes in at smashwords and elsewhere, simply not worth my time. It would help if there was some sort of minimum standard, but there isn't and even if there was, who gets to decide?

"To each his or her own" is the applicable cliche here. We all have our own criteria for what is entertaining and worthwhile, and what is garbage. I would classify myself as having middlebrow tastes. I happen to think Stephanie Meyer and James Joyce are equally horrible as writers. And if you put a gun to my head, I'd chose "Twilight" over "Ulysses" any day.

[Dr. Drib]

I always enjoy discovering new anatomical anomalies in my reading, such as this one from a novel by Douglas Boren. This is the opening, first paragraph of the novel:

With her heart in her throat, Maggie ran down the great hallway, summoned by her master’s stern voice. Lord Myron Victor of Cheswyck brooked no tardiness, laziness, nor excuses.

It's listed as Historical Fiction, but I imagine one could easily place this in science fiction. I'm presuming the heroine didn't choke to death, although one could argue that she was already dead. Or do I presume too much?

Any eyeballs-in-the-armpit novels out there?



Don

[Joykins]

Originally Posted by crich70

Doesn't it come to the same thing though at least when the author self-edits their own work? Granted it is possible to miss some things as everyone is human but especially now that people can self-publish through places like Smashwords and Amazon doesn't bad editing = bad writing in some cases?

The author should not be editing his/her own work. Seriously, do programmers release code to production when they are the only testers? Ridiculous. Creators have blind spots; it's their baby. They need editors.

I would also add that the *kinds* of errors you see in poorly-edited vs. poorly-written books are different. There are books out there that no editing short of a rewrite will ever save. I have read books that had very few/no typos, but wooden prose, horrible pacing, cardboard characters...ain't nothing going to save that.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by usuallee

"To each his or her own" is the applicable cliche here. We all have our own criteria for what is entertaining and worthwhile, and what is garbage. I would classify myself as having middlebrow tastes. I happen to think Stephanie Meyer and James Joyce are equally horrible as writers. And if you put a gun to my head, I'd chose "Twilight" over "Ulysses" any day.

Definitely "to each his own." I don't believe I suggested anthing to the contrary. That concept is, in fact, exactly what I'm advocating. The "Teeth Gnashers" I'm referring to are the ones who--like you--have decided the "scene" isn't for them and is "impossible" to navigate and have taken it upon themselves to trumpet that their inability (or unwillingness) to successfully navigate the waters is somehow a divine indication that no one should try (or should even want to try) to experience such an "impossible" task. Those are the Teeth Gnashers I'm referring to... and they're certainly not of the "to each his own" variety. They're of the "my word is gospel" variety.

I don't exclusively read indie stuff by any means; in fact indie books would represent a small fraction of what I read. I'm only suggesting that my (and others like me) ability to quite painlessly dip my thumb in and pull out a plumb from time to time should be enough to dispel the myth that it's "impossible" to do so. You have decided it's not worth your time/effort to do so. Not a thing wrong with that. I take umbrage with the gnashers who trumpet from on high that it can't possibly be worth anyone's time to do so.

Are you that kind of gnasher?

[4691mls]

Originally Posted by Dr. Drib

I always enjoy discovering new anatomical anomalies in my reading, such as this one from a novel by Douglas Boren. This is the opening, first paragraph of the novel:

With her heart in her throat, Maggie ran down the great hallway, summoned by her master’s stern voice. Lord Myron Victor of Cheswyck brooked no tardiness, laziness, nor excuses.

It's listed as Historical Fiction, but I imagine one could easily place this in science fiction. I'm presuming the heroine didn't choke to death, although one could argue that she was already dead. Or do I presume too much?

Any eyeballs-in-the-armpit novels out there?



Don

Actually, I've heard that "heart in my throat" expression before. It isn't meant to be literal, but an attempt to convey a feeling of fear/anxiety. Maybe it just isn't used much any more.
http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_b...sages/185.html


I recently read an otherwise decent book where at one point a character sat on a sofa "with her legs tucked behind her". I was picturing some kind of Chinese acrobat.....


As for the suspenders/braces thing - as an American, the first thing I would think if I read that a character was wearing braces, was that the character had orthodontic braces on their teeth. Hmm- what do Brits call those?

I'm fine with reading British and Australian books, though - I don't need an Americanized version. One thing I love about my Sony PRS-T1 is that it has both American English and Oxford English dictionaries - the Oxford dictionary is very helpful to me when I read a British book.

[Dr. Drib]

Yes, I know it's not literal; it's figurative language. In fact, it's actually a cliche.

Writing cliches in one's fiction is the result of lazy writing.

....to have this as the opening paragraph.......



Don

[DiapDealer]

I certainly wouldn't have batted an eye at "heart in her throat." Quite a common, perfectly acceptable metaphor/colloquialism, IMO. *shrug*

[Yolina]

Originally Posted by 4691mls

As for the suspenders/braces thing - as an American, the first thing I would think if I read that a character was wearing braces, was that the character had orthodontic braces on their teeth. Hmm- what do Brits call those?

Those are called braces in the UK too

[Blossom]

Originally Posted by rhadin

It is not the editor's job to make sure crap doesn't happen. The only power copyeditors have is to suggest and recommend. Dozens of times I have suggested to publishers that a book desperately needs a developmental editor and/or shouldn't be published in the present form, only to be told that it was going to be published for reason xyz, usually because the publisher didn't expect sales to be sufficient to justify the expense of a developmental editor or publication delay.

And I know personally of hundreds of instances in which authors have rejected necessary editorial changes because their "writing is perfect" and the publisher just wants the book published. Editors do not deserve the blame in this game!

It was the author's first mainstream published book so I don't think it's the second. Sorry I still stand by I think the editor didn't do their job in this particular case.

A author can't edit their own work. Their brain inserts missing words or they just don't see issues due to the way the brain works. Everyday on Facebook I read status posts from Famous authors talking about their Editors. So I am well aware what an editor does.

This is the only Sourcebook I have read that had this issue. I buy all their Romance books and I am member to DANL so I am still baffled as to how it got by them for print. She has since then published 3 more books and none of them have that issue.