What are your red flags?

[bill_mchale]

Originally Posted by Jen_Smith

Christian fiction is a red flag for me (except for novels based on Biblical history, which is a bit of a hobby. And, of course, doesn't count as Christian because most of them are Old Testament).

By Christian fiction, are you referring to the genre or anything written where Christian themes are portrayed positively. If the former, I agree with you, if the latter, you are cutting out an awful lot of great novels. Brideshead Revisited, the Power and the Glory, The Moviegoer, Les Miserables, etc.

Pirates. I refuse, absolutely, to read a book with pirates in it. Unless they are being successfully hunted down by the lawful authorities.

So lawful authorities always equals good guy?

Anything where the heroine gets pregnant by accident, set after the 1960s. Contraception, ladies. Any woman who doesn't respect herself enough to take precautions gets no respect from me.

What if the precautions fail? It does happen... more often than most people realize I expect.

--
Bill

[Fbone]

LOTR by Tolkien is also Christian fiction.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by bill_mchale

By Christian fiction, are you referring to the genre or anything written where Christian themes are portrayed positively. If the former, I agree with you, if the latter, you are cutting out an awful lot of great novels. Brideshead Revisited, the Power and the Glory, The Moviegoer, Les Miserables, etc.

Not. Interested.

Or rather, not interested if they're described as something like "a moving tale with deep Christian themes." Probably not interested if they're known for being that, even if not directly described, but just having themes that a lot of Christian theologians like isn't what puts a book on the "do not read" list for me.

There's no shortage of excellent literature without Christian themes; I don't need more exposure to one particular flavor of monotheism, no matter how well it's written.

But for here--where the topic is "red flags"--it's not so much an issue of "I don't read Christian fic" (although I generally don't), but "if the author/publisher feels the need to mention Christian themes in the blurb, or allude to obviously Christian parables, I don't need to read this book; they're obviously seeking a market that doesn't include me."

This includes atheist nonfic that feels the need to "prove" that Christianity is wrong, esp. as most of them are attempting to prove that some aspects of some flavors of Christianity are wrong, and then take that as proof that all of Christianity is useless.

Originally Posted by Fbone

LOTR by Tolkien is also Christian fiction.

1) Grandfathered. I read it before I decided I was avoiding Christian fic.

2) Not bothered by hidden Christian themes (or, not always bothered); they're a red flag if they're mentioned or obvious in the blurb. The ones that feel the need to *point out* their Christian themes come across as preachy. I'm not trying to avoid all Christian allegory; I'm trying to avoid books I know I'll want to throw against the wall at some point during the reading.

[Xanthe]

I tend to avoid books that are labeled "Christian fiction" because I view that as code for "this book is just going to reinforce your world-view and there won't be anything to cause you any self doubt, or challenge what you've been taught, or imperil your immortal soul".

I realize that is an over-generalization, but you get my drift.

If the author wants to work in Christian themes into a story, I don't have any problem with it. Nor would I for any other religion or non-belief of the author. I just find it sad that some adults are apparently so fearful that they require a "safe" genre before they will read a book.

Thus sayeth this particular Christian.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by Xanthe

I just find it sad that some adults are apparently so fearful that they require a "safe" genre before they will read a book.

Thus sayeth this particular Christian.

I don't mind "safe" genres; I read a lot of romance and erotica where I know from page 2 who's going to end up together and have a good idea what won't happen on the way. And while some of the details are uncertain, those aren't what I'm reading for.

I do get the impression that "Christian fiction" is marketed less as "somewhat formulaic stories fitting into a limited range of tropes so you can enjoy the fluff without distractions" and more as "the way ALL GOOD stories OUGHT to work."

And if I can spot that from the blurb, I know to stay away from that book. It's not even that I'm certain not to enjoy it... I just know that there are other stories I'd enjoy more; I don't need to waste my time on that one. It won't give me any "uplifting" messages or comfort, and it won't challenge my beliefs because it's starting with a bunch of assumptions I don't share. I might enjoy the characters and storyline but I won't enjoy the underlying themes, and there's no shortage of books where I would.

[bill_mchale]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

There's no shortage of excellent literature without Christian themes; I don't need more exposure to one particular flavor of monotheism, no matter how well it's written.

Actually, I am not sure that is true. Christianity is pretty deeply embedded in Western Culture. Heck even Star Trek and Doctor Who can't avoid pretty obvious Christian themes in their stories.

2) Not bothered by hidden Christian themes (or, not always bothered); they're a red flag if they're mentioned or obvious in the blurb. The ones that feel the need to *point out* their Christian themes come across as preachy. I'm not trying to avoid all Christian allegory; I'm trying to avoid books I know I'll want to throw against the wall at some point during the reading.

Which is why I asked about the genre versus books with themes. Though it sounds like this is an area where you don't necessarily like to have your assumptions challenged.

--
Bill

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by bill_mchale

Actually, I am not sure that is true. Christianity is pretty deeply embedded in Western Culture. Heck even Star Trek and Doctor Who can't avoid pretty obvious Christian themes in their stories.



Which is why I asked about the genre versus books with themes. Though it sounds like this is an area where you don't necessarily like to have your assumptions challenged.

--
Bill

Challenging assumptions can lead to black eyes and other physical enhancements where I live.

Helen

[Catlady]

When I see the label "Christian fiction," I assume that the story will be secondary to the preaching. And I don't want to be preached to when I read a novel; I want primarily to be entertained.

[Jane Oldaker]

Originally Posted by Catlady

When I see the label "Christian fiction," I assume that the story will be secondary to the preaching. And I don't want to be preached to when I read a novel; I want primarily to be entertained.

Agree. But I suppose there is a group for whom this has appeal. I saw a book recently that stated the number of downloads it had received on a particular site. This was a red flag to me, I just thought the author was trying to hard...I lost interest and kept surfing.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by bill_mchale

Actually, I am not sure that is true. Christianity is pretty deeply embedded in Western Culture. Heck even Star Trek and Doctor Who can't avoid pretty obvious Christian themes in their stories.

The Star Trek and Dr Who stories I read are pretty well devoid of Christian themes, unless "orgies in the holodeck" has become a sacrament for some denominations.

The overwhelming prevalence of Christian themes in Western literature is a big part of why I read a lot of fanfic and look for books that have sources outside of Western Culture.

Which is why I asked about the genre versus books with themes. Though it sounds like this is an area where you don't necessarily like to have your assumptions challenged.

Challenging assumptions is fine. I enjoy religious debate. But the books with those themes don't challenge anything; they say "this is how the world works;" there is no discussion of the source of their premises, and no consideration of how someone who doesn't share them could make sense of the book.

"Christian fiction" doesn't challenge the assumptions of non-Christians. It just leaves them cold--without sharing the premises the author is using as a foundation, they've got no way to understand how the characters react to plot events, and why the plot unfolds as it does. The characters come across as forced and wooden and the plots tend to be predictable and lacking in meaningful impact.

Much like if someone doesn't like romance novels and tries to read one--the plot is likely to seem inane ("why do I care why this woman needs a handyman for her house? Who cares if he was her brother's tormentor in high school? If they hate each other so much, why would they ever agree to go to a dance together?"), the characters are likely to seem insipid ("doesn't she ever think about anything other than getting a husband? If he's always liked the color of her hair, why doesn't he just tell her instead of moping about it?"), and the conclusion is likely to seem pointless ("so, they've slept together and they're gonna get married... good for them? Why did I need to spend three hours reading time to find this out?").

Whatever message or meaning is in the story is lost on someone who doesn't care about the tropes and themes of the genre. For a romance reader, the value of *that* (entirely hypothetical) book, rather than countless others in the genre, might be that she has strong family relationships (rare but not unknown), that he his her employee instead of the other way around (ditto), that he's not wealthy, military, or an artist (also fairly rare).

The concepts that "animosity hides a spark of interest that could lead to love" and "working relationships can turn romantic without messing up both people's lives" are taken as given. Those are built into the genre; no justification for them is offered. If you don't agree, or can't set aside disagreement for the length of a book, don't read most romance books; you won't like them.

The basic tropes and concepts of "Christian fiction" are ones I don't agre with. I can sometimes identify their value as literary conventions; I'm willing to be persuaded that they're more than that (not likely, but it could happen)--but the fiction isn't going to go there. Romance novels don't justify the concepts of true-love-happily-ever-after; Christian fiction doesn't justify the concept of a benevolent omniscient deity who guides and shapes people's lives.

I love stories that challenge my preconceptions. They have to start from the notion that readers will need more than "if you believed this, you'd love this story."

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

The Star Trek and Dr Who stories I read are pretty well devoid of Christian themes, unless "orgies in the holodeck" has become a sacrament for some denominations.

The overwhelming prevalence of Christian themes in Western literature is a big part of why I read a lot of fanfic and look for books that have sources outside of Western Culture.



Challenging assumptions is fine. I enjoy religious debate. But the books with those themes don't challenge anything; they say "this is how the world works;" there is no discussion of the source of their premises, and no consideration of how someone who doesn't share them could make sense of the book.

"Christian fiction" doesn't challenge the assumptions of non-Christians. It just leaves them cold--without sharing the premises the author is using as a foundation, they've got no way to understand how the characters react to plot events, and why the plot unfolds as it does. The characters come across as forced and wooden and the plots tend to be predictable and lacking in meaningful impact.

Much like if someone doesn't like romance novels and tries to read one--the plot is likely to seem inane ("why do I care why this woman needs a handyman for her house? Who cares if he was her brother's tormentor in high school? If they hate each other so much, why would they ever agree to go to a dance together?"), the characters are likely to seem insipid ("doesn't she ever think about anything other than getting a husband? If he's always liked the color of her hair, why doesn't he just tell her instead of moping about it?"), and the conclusion is likely to seem pointless ("so, they've slept together and they're gonna get married... good for them? Why did I need to spend three hours reading time to find this out?").

Whatever message or meaning is in the story is lost on someone who doesn't care about the tropes and themes of the genre. For a romance reader, the value of *that* (entirely hypothetical) book, rather than countless others in the genre, might be that she has strong family relationships (rare but not unknown), that he his her employee instead of the other way around (ditto), that he's not wealthy, military, or an artist (also fairly rare).

The concepts that "animosity hides a spark of interest that could lead to love" and "working relationships can turn romantic without messing up both people's lives" are taken as given. Those are built into the genre; no justification for them is offered. If you don't agree, or can't set aside disagreement for the length of a book, don't read most romance books; you won't like them.

The basic tropes and concepts of "Christian fiction" are ones I don't agre with. I can sometimes identify their value as literary conventions; I'm willing to be persuaded that they're more than that (not likely, but it could happen)--but the fiction isn't going to go there. Romance novels don't justify the concepts of true-love-happily-ever-after; Christian fiction doesn't justify the concept of a benevolent omniscient deity who guides and shapes people's lives.

I love stories that challenge my preconceptions. They have to start from the notion that readers will need more than "if you believed this, you'd love this story."

I don't much care for anything labeled Christian and I don't know why, except that I have read some and they seemed dull overall. Probably lots that aren't but my impression has been formed for a good many years.

On the other hand there are quite a few books that I would not pass up a chance to read where one of the main characters has strong religious leanings and/or sees visions etc.

One example are the legal thrillers written by Robert K. Tanenbaum. Butch Karp and Marlene Ciampi. Nothing wimpy or boring about those books despite the devout Catholicism of the daughter figuring strongly in several of them. And I am a sucker for books where the main character is atheist or agnostic and keeps encountering God in strange places.

I guess I have nothing against religion in books, but if they are tagged or labeled as Christian or religious I am very unlikely to buy them or even read them for free.

Helen

[bill_mchale]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

The Star Trek and Dr Who stories I read are pretty well devoid of Christian themes, unless "orgies in the holodeck" has become a sacrament for some denominations.

What you don't think Spock dying for the crew of the Enterprise and returning to life is not a Christian theme?

And how about how as each Doctor dies he is reborn in a new body but is essentially the same?

Note, I didn't say Christian preaching, I said Christian themes. That is why I asked about about the genre, which does seem to be often about preaching, versus the themes, which frankly pepper much of Western Fiction, even if the author intends to or not.

The overwhelming prevalence of Christian themes in Western literature is a big part of why I read a lot of fanfic and look for books that have sources outside of Western Culture.

Never bothered with fanfic... but I bet there are more themes there as well, particularly if it is based on a work that has Christian themes in it.

Challenging assumptions is fine. I enjoy religious debate. But the books with those themes don't challenge anything; they say "this is how the world works;" there is no discussion of the source of their premises, and no consideration of how someone who doesn't share them could make sense of the book.

I think you are confusing preaching from themes. To go to the Lord of the Rings as an example. There are plenty of Christian themes peppered in the book, but little overt preaching.

As for underlying assumptions or premises, this seems to be a rather peculiar position to take. I have read and enjoyed books that were blatantly secular humanist in their outlook even though I don't accept that world view and even though there is no underlying discussion of those assumptions. Why? Because like Christianity, it is a major school of thought in Western civilization and being a member of that civilization, I am at least familiar with its particular outlook.

"Christian fiction" doesn't challenge the assumptions of non-Christians. It just leaves them cold--without sharing the premises the author is using as a foundation, they've got no way to understand how the characters react to plot events, and why the plot unfolds as it does. The characters come across as forced and wooden and the plots tend to be predictable and lacking in meaningful impact.

Again, I think that depends on what one defines as Christian Fiction. If it is the stuff that is found on the Christian Book shelf of the book store, I think it has less to do with a poor foundation and more to do with just plain poor writing.

If on the other hand, you are making this claim about works by some of the greatest writers of the last couple of centuries... then it just strikes me as being sad.

Much like if someone doesn't like romance novels and tries to read one--the plot is likely to seem inane ("why do I care why this woman needs a handyman for her house? Who cares if he was her brother's tormentor in high school? If they hate each other so much, why would they ever agree to go to a dance together?"), the characters are likely to seem insipid ("doesn't she ever think about anything other than getting a husband? If he's always liked the color of her hair, why doesn't he just tell her instead of moping about it?"), and the conclusion is likely to seem pointless ("so, they've slept together and they're gonna get married... good for them? Why did I need to spend three hours reading time to find this out?").

Whatever message or meaning is in the story is lost on someone who doesn't care about the tropes and themes of the genre. For a romance reader, the value of *that* (entirely hypothetical) book, rather than countless others in the genre, might be that she has strong family relationships (rare but not unknown), that he his her employee instead of the other way around (ditto), that he's not wealthy, military, or an artist (also fairly rare).

The concepts that "animosity hides a spark of interest that could lead to love" and "working relationships can turn romantic without messing up both people's lives" are taken as given. Those are built into the genre; no justification for them is offered. If you don't agree, or can't set aside disagreement for the length of a book, don't read most romance books; you won't like them.

The basic tropes and concepts of "Christian fiction" are ones I don't agre with. I can sometimes identify their value as literary conventions; I'm willing to be persuaded that they're more than that (not likely, but it could happen)--but the fiction isn't going to go there. Romance novels don't justify the concepts of true-love-happily-ever-after; Christian fiction doesn't justify the concept of a benevolent omniscient deity who guides and shapes people's lives.

I love stories that challenge my preconceptions. They have to start from the notion that readers will need more than "if you believed this, you'd love this story."

I am still not sure what you mean when you say Christian Fiction. Are we talking the genre or simply work with Christian themes. Because frankly using the definition you just gave of Christian Fiction, it is totally missing the whole Christianity thing. Good fiction will often have Christian themes in it (intentionally or not) because Christianity has shaped the way Western culture views the world. Concepts such as good or evil, flawed characters attempting to overcome their flaws, the problem of evil are all ones that are deeply Christian and yet hard to tell a good story without (well without some of them anyway).

--
Bill

[Difflugia]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

I don't much care for anything labeled Christian and I don't know why, except that I have read some and they seemed dull overall. Probably lots that aren't but my impression has been formed for a good many years.

My problem with most fiction labelled as Christian is that it invokes God as a literal deus ex machina. Since I've been told by others that they specifically enjoy that aspect, I can only assume that it's intentional rather than lazy (as would be the case in most other genres) and I'm just not a member of the target audience.

I enjoy some Christian fiction very much, though. The Chronicles of Narnia series is wonderful, even if the allegory is heavy-handed. Lamb is an entertaining, if not exactly orthodox, take on Jesus' youth and The Last Temptation of Christ is one of my all-time favorites.

I so badly wanted Left Behind to be good that I read it twice. But it just isn't.

[Difflugia]

Originally Posted by bill_mchale

Good fiction will often have Christian themes in it (intentionally or not) because Christianity has shaped the way Western culture views the world. Concepts such as good or evil, flawed characters attempting to overcome their flaws, the problem of evil are all ones that are deeply Christian and yet hard to tell a good story without (well without some of them anyway).

I would argue that the concepts you list were absorbed into Christianity from Western (Hellenistic) culture rather than the other way around. Though we in the West may have inherited them via Christianity, the Homeric epics are built on those very themes and predate Christianity on the order of a millenium.

[Fbone]

Originally Posted by bill_mchale

Concepts such as good or evil, flawed characters attempting to overcome their flaws, the problem of evil are all ones that are deeply Christian and yet hard to tell a good story without (well without some of them anyway).

--
Bill

This is very true. Any book with good vs evil, "reformed rakes" or individuals regretting, deploring, repenting or forgiving has Christian themes.