Seriously thoughtful What is it that makes us human?

[Dr. Drib]

Originally Posted by tompe

The question is kind of too unspecific. Better questions are: What is a person (personhood)? What is human nature? What is a moral agent?

You're more than welcome to start that thread.


Don

[taosaur]

Originally Posted by vivaldirules

Is there tangible evidence (i.e., that morals and "humanity" exist without humans)? Lacking any, these must be human constructs. In which case I'll stick with the characterization of Virulent Cancer. I'm not particularly happy about being an organism of that cancer but it seems an apt description.

Is there tangible evidence that tangibility or evidence exist without humans?

I'm not sure how your post was intended as a response to mine. "Is there tangible evidence" that the two extreme egocentric views ("We're the best thing evar!" and "We're the worst thing evar!") don't define the full spectrum of possibilities in assessing humanity?

[thibaulthalpern]

Originally Posted by Ea

Not even sure what I ask... I've been watching Blade Runner again. Anyway, to ask the question; why do you think you're human? How well does that argument hold up? And if not, what *do* you think you are?

Isn't it presumptive to ask "Why do you think you're human"? Not everyone thinks in those categories. Some may think they're dogs, or bitches, or pigs, or sows, or whatever.

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by GeoffC

indeed - look around; and we are all supposed to be related (to the umpteenth grandma & pa !) ....

To be Human; is that not the ability and seemingly blind willingness to wreck our home and all that live on her ?

Its also the ability to sacrifice ourselves for another, even when they are unknown to us.

The pictures of firemen rushing into the twin towers knowing they most likely would not make it out, comes to mind.

To be human also is the ability to create music that brings you to tears, and art that leaves you speechless.. Now, I am not talking about crap rap, or 'modern' art.

I am talking Raphael, Monet, Renoir, DaVinci, Michelangelo.

Think Beethovan, Bach, Gershwin, and yes, Andrew Lloyd Webber.

this is not a complete list, just a sampling. The list is endless. Unfortunately, we live in a time when crap is accepted and celebrated as "art" and obscentities as "music"

To be "human" is to bring out the best in ourselves, and others.

We are not a "cancer" or "holy children"

We are not the same as animals.

We , most of us, strive daily to do right, and we sometimes forget that by keeping silent, and accepting what we know is wrong, we condone the wrongdo-ers.

[nohmi2]

DG

I agree with all that you have said. There is a great deal of beauty, courage and selflessnes in the world.

Your point of 'art' and so called 'music' is merely a small taste of a wider problem.

It would be a good start if "Justice' was given an overhaul. Today there is no justice, there is just 'the law', where too many criminals are given a slap on the wrist, leaving the victims bemused and frustrated.

I don't think that any of us have all the answers to such a complex question.......I know that I don't.

Cheers

[taosaur]

Originally Posted by nohmi2

DG

I agree with all that you have said. There is a great deal of beauty, courage and selflessnes in the world.

Your point of 'art' and so called 'music' is merely a small taste of a wider problem.

It would be a good start if "Justice' was given an overhaul. Today there is no justice, there is just 'the law', where too many criminals are given a slap on the wrist, leaving the victims bemused and frustrated.

I don't think that any of us have all the answers to such a complex question.......I know that I don't.

Cheers

Yes, we've fallen so far from the Golden Age. There's certainly no wonderful music or art being made these days. I mean, wouldn't it be jumping out in front of you waving its arms if there were?

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by taosaur

Yes, we've fallen so far from the Golden Age. There's certainly no wonderful music or art being made these days. I mean, wouldn't it be jumping out in front of you waving its arms if there were?

Ever heard and watched Yanni in concert? Andre Rieu? Have you ever watched Mannheim Steamroller Christmas concert? Have you ever heard/watched Celtic Women? How about Michael Buble? Listened to Sarah Brightman? TransSiberian Orchestra? How about Yo Yo Ma, or the three tenors?

The incredible music is out there. The human spirit is out there.

And yes, monsters are out there too, Nohmi2. Because, as humans, we allow them to be.

[nohmi2]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

Ever heard and watched Yanni in concert? Andre Rieu? Have you ever watched Mannheim Steamroller Christmas concert? Have you ever heard/watched Celtic Women? How about Michael Buble? Listened to Sarah Brightman? TransSiberian Orchestra? How about Yo Yo Ma, or the three tenors?

The incredible music is out there. The human spirit is out there.

And yes, monsters are out there too, Nohmi2. Because, as humans, we allow them to be.

No one is disputing that the human spirit is out there - we hear of it every day, and it lifts our hearts to hear or see it.

We need to lift our game though, if we want to leave a 'fair' society to future generations.

Cheers

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

We are not the same as animals.

I respectfully disagree.

Humans have characteristics that distinguish them from other animals - but then so do all species.

[tirsales]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

We are not the same as animals.

Strictly speaking we ARE animals - and I do not see why this is a bad thing.
You never witnesses e.g. how an animal mother fights a bigger beasty (sacrificing herself) for the sake of her children?
Homo sapiens sapiens is an animal - and there is nothing wrong with that.

[Dr. Drib]

If there are monsters in the world - and I concede there are - then we contain both the worst and best - both ugliness and beauty. We are understandably frightened by the Dahlmers of the world because it once was human - it came into the world as a human being full of beauty and hope and spirit, but left as something unrecognizably different.

Music: I personally don't like rap (in fact, I find it pretty horrible) and some other kinds of music, but to deny it and other music I don't like is to be an arbiter of taste and I will not assume to be the censor for something I personally do not like.

I find many things beautiful, and I find some things so full of Saccharin that I could choke on the sweetness. Some will disagree with my preferences, and that's justifiably understandable. Sometimes, too, it takes time for appreication for art and music to develop - perhaps the human race is not there yet in order to fully appreciate some music and some art.

Interestingly, when we talk about that which gives us beauty, about that which we find beautiful and enlightening, by definition we are bound to leave out things which others might not agree belong on that list.


Don

[vivaldirules]

Originally Posted by nohmi2

No one is disputing that the human spirit is out there - we hear of it every day, and it lifts our hearts to hear or see it.

We need to lift our game though, if we want to leave a 'fair' society to future generations.

Cheers

I agree with you, though perhaps not in degree. There must be billions of examples of people who possess a human spirit in the way grandma has described it. Individually, we can be astoundingly impressive. But collectively we are a plague with the occasional island of benignity. Substantially lifting our game, not just as individuals but as a whole, seems to be beyond our abilities.

[desertgrandma]

The question is "what is it that makes us human"

Its not what we do, or listen to, or see/watch.

I think its how we respond to external influences.

We make choices to live either positively or negatively. (Please, lets not bring in the mentally ill, thats a whole 'nother category)

We make choices to sacrifice ourselves, or others. We make choices every day, for better or worse, and thats also what makes us human.

Animals don't "choose", they survive on instinct. Of course some mothers fight for their young. But once the predator has the young in their mouths, the fight is over, and compare that to the daily fight mothers endure to raise human babies!

And Dr. Drib, yes, I will censor music I feel is in bad taste for my family. We now have an entire culture of dope/gun selling encouraging, cop haters, women haters because people didn't feel they had the "right" to censor someone elses taste in music. Trust me, anytime the Burger Kind ad is played, the channel is changed. And should I catch my granddaughter trying to act like the women on it, she'll be told "uh uh, thats unacceptable behavior." I won't listen or allow someone I'm responsible for, to listen to hatred and disgusting behavior.

[tirsales]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

Its not what we do, or listen to, or see/watch.

I think its how we respond to external influences.

You are contradicting your points below somehow.

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

Animals don't "choose", they survive on instinct.

This is wrong on so many levels ... Animals CAN choose - otherwise they wouldn't be able to learn. Why is it that discussions about "what is human" tend to get "Animals are so low, we are so much higher, because .." and the definition of human must always include something like "We are better then animals .." We ARE animals (family Hominidae, biological order (bipedal) Primates).
Any definition that relies on behaviour to specify what a human is must (by its very nature) be incomplete - it will neither include babies, nor mentally ill (sorry, we cannot just leave them out), nor "monstrous humans". Adolf Hitler has been a human. This does not excuse his crimes - in fact, it makes them even more terrible. It would be so much easier to say "Yeah, well, he's not been a human - cant happen again" then admitting "Yes, he has been a human and it's our duty to not let it happen again".

Of course some mothers fight for their young. But once the predator has the young in their mouths, the fight is over, and compare that to the daily fight mothers endure to raise human babies!

You might want to learn about the behaviour of whales or elephants. (Or even rats for that matter - who lead their children to traps or dangerous places to teach them about them or show them poison in order to warn them).

And Dr. Drib, yes, I will censor music I feel is in bad taste for my family.

Why? Censorship is easy, a discussion about pros/cons and "why something is bad" is (of course) harder but might lead to more responsible behaviour.
Its the old discussion: Am I good because I am punished if I am evil - or am I good because I choose to be.

We now have an entire culture of dope/gun selling encouraging, cop haters, women haters because people didn't feel they had the "right" to censor someone elses taste in music.

This is a very, very dangerous argument. One that I would very much like to discuss - in a separate topic.

Trust me, anytime the Burger Kind ad is played, the channel is changed.

Understandable - it really is annoying (not a question of its "message" - it just is annoying and I like my time to have at least some value).

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

I

To be human also is the ability to create music that brings you to tears, and art that leaves you speechless..

Thats what I meant about "responding". Sometimes I think of a better way to express myself way after the fact.

What exactly is it that animals learn? How to survive. From their parents, herd, whatever. Its an instinctive behavior, right? They have to learn this in order to survive. Hardly puts us on the same plane.

Humans, yes, we are animals, but have evolved beyond simply surviving. Granted, you can't tell that by what you see in everyday newspapers or TV, but civilizations rise and fall, and each one hopefully learns something from the past. Again, we seem to be regressing in that respect. But its the choices being made, by those in power, causing this, not the fact that we're on the same playing field as animals.

Hitler is a prime example of what I said about choosing to live positively or negatively. He chose the negative side. He wasn't the worse by any means. The doctors who preformed the experiments in his camps,....they chose to show the worst side of humanity. They did it for the pleasure, science be dammed.

Censoring music/shows whatever in my family isn't done without explanations ad nauseum. You can believe they know exactly why it isn't allowed. Explanations are cruicial to understanding whats right and wrong. Thats part of the reason I fell away from my religious training. No questions were allowed. You believed on faith alone, or were dammed.

Of course the Burger King ad has a message! Do you see the last part?? "Booty is booty" Kids pick up phrases instantly. Please! Thats what anyone would want their daughter to grow up like? Would you be proud of YOUR daughter if she were one of those? Its not "just a commercial. "

Being human means rising above this crap, not just the ads, but the entire world wide mess. It means doing whats right, whether thats picking up trash that isn't yours, or teaching your own right from wrong.

I haven't the proper vocabulary to state exactly what I"m trying to say. Oh, and I have to be gone for a while, so don't think I'm ignoring you.