Seriously thoughtful DRM != Piracy

[slayda]

I guess when I buy a box of cereal, you'd insist that I eat the box as well as the cereal. As others have said, once I buy it, it's mine & I can discard any portion I want to.

[=X=]

Originally Posted by p3aul

Well this msg is nt directed at any particular individule, but let be make another boring, simile.

LOL well I think the analogy is bad, but I get your point. A more fitting analogy is to say the bookstore owners takes your check but says the only time you can read this book is when you enter my store. Oh and I have the right to stop carrying the book you "rented". Oh and by the way you "rented" the paper back model not the "hardback" so you cant read that book.

I am complete agreement with you. Businesses have the right to implement whatever business model they wish. And consumers have the right to chose who they do business with.

I don't understand why people get so ruffled up. Just DON'T by the DRM books. I've had my PRS-505 for over a year now and aside from the first book I bought when I pursed the reader I've yet to buy another book from SONY.

=X=

[daffy4u]

Originally Posted by =X=

I don't understand why people get so ruffled up.

I don't think the posters in this thread are getting ruffled (I'm a duck so I should know ). Everyone is just trying to find a way to explain the issue to p3aul in a way he understands even if he still doesn't agree.

[Peverel]

I think this debate is really just the ebook bit of a far wider change in the way we consume and distribute digital media and assets. First off I put may hands up to working in the internet industries and having more than a passing interest/involvement in the digital media industry.

Now to my point. We are seeing, in all digital media fields, a change in the way songs/films/books et al are being consumed. I look the younger members of my own family (nephews and nieces from 7 to 21) and see them using very different ways of choosing what they buy.

Simple example, my nephew wants to see a particular film. He has already defined in his own mind what he is prepared to pay to see the film and then looks for a supplier. That could be a traditional internet side or via his xbox or maybe his Archos Media Player. If he believes the price is too expensive he just looks for another supplier.

I think this is the fundimental change, where with CD, DVD and even books, we were in the past forced to buy at a given price (remember when every CD in the UK was at least £12-99), todays internet generation (i.e. the ones who have grown up with an internet being there) are using different consumer rules. The internet isn't just free content but it has to have content that is priced correctly.

Someone earlier said if a DRM'd book was $2.99 they wouldn't mind but if it was $15.99 they won't consider purchasing. This for me is the essence of the new digital market. If I can "rent" my DRM'd ebook at a reasonable rental price, re-read it as I want on my device but then 'rent' a new copy for a new device I have much less of a problem with DRM. That said this means that DRM should be priced at a fraction of the cost of say a printed version, and most ebooks are more expensive in my experience.

That's my 2 cents worth

[=X=]

Originally Posted by daffy4u

I don't think the posters in this thread are getting ruffled (I'm a duck so I should know ). Everyone is just trying to find a way to explain the issue to p3aul in a way he understands even if he still doesn't agree.

Okay well since you are the only resident duck in mobileread I will take your word for it.

My take is people just won't understand until they become eBook readers. THEN they'll get it.

=X=

[daffy4u]

Originally Posted by =X=

Okay well since you are the only resident duck in mobileread I will take your word for it.

My take is people just won't understand until they become eBook readers. THEN they'll get it.

=X=

Can't argue with that!

[Xenophon]

Originally Posted by p3aul

Well this msg is nt directed at any particular individule, but let be make another boring, simile. I go into a store and present them with a check. The say, "We can't accept checks, it's not our policy" I have two choices, I can pay cash or I can leave without my would-be purchases. What they are really saying is this. "It's our way or the highway!" I may be mad, I say " You ought to give it to me, but the bottom line is this. They own the merchandise and they have the right to distribute it as they see fit. Now the way I see it is this. They have a right to do what they want to with what is there own.

This is, I guess the point I was trying to make in another thread, when all I succeeded in doing was alienating everyone.

Originally Posted by p3aul

Here we go again! Just carry on without me.

Let's see here... For the first message from p3aul, I sent some karma his way, because it's absolutely true that the seller has the right to include DRM or not. Or to apply other restrictions up to but not past the limits allowed through legislation and common law (see concepts like "right of first sale" and the like). His statement may not be popular around here, but it's certainly correct.

For the second quote, however I'm not trying to castigate you for "being wrong" (or whatever "bad" motive one may choose). Rather, I'm hoping to point out some facts, some arguments and some opinions that p3aul may not have considered. I maintain that he's still free to issue content with DRM if he chooses (note: "he" probably really means "p3aul/his wife/her publisher/..."). I'd be disappointed, but it is their choice, not ours.

All that said, first a few facts:

• There are plenty of real and legitimate reasons for people to prefer non-DRMd books. And that preference does not imply that they are pirates. I've given some examples back in the other thread; others have done so both earlier in this thread and also in that one.
• Format shifting of legitimately acquired content appears to be entirely legal, when performed by the end user for personal use only. There hasn't been a court case involving eBooks specifically, but it appears that most legal experts agree that the rulings on digitized music naturally encompass eBooks too (ref: Graduate seminar on Intellectual Property and DRM at CMU, legal experts presenting thereunto.) This is the case whether sellers and publishers like it or not.
• Stripping DRM from legitimately acquired content for personal use only may or may not be legal. Legal experts disagree wildly, and no court has yet ruled. (Ref: same graduate seminar.)
• There are some alternative business models that don't use DRM. Some examples of those business models appear to be showing better results than the "lock it all up" approach. (P3aul: I put some references in a post back in the other thread about this. Did you read any of them?)

P3aul: Are you with me so far? If not, specific disagreements would be welcome.

The folks at Baen have been publishing paper books for 20+ years. They're distributed in paper by Simon&Schuster, and can be found in most bookstores in the US and Canada (and many other countries). They've been selling eBooks for over a decade, with no DRM... and no piracy problem. Meanwhile, they've grown steadily by all relevant measures ($ gross, copies sold, $ profit, etc.) even as the publishing industry as a whole has shrunk. All with a typical sell-through of around 80%. Their authors include the gamut from front-listers who routinely hit the NYT best-sellers list with each new book, through strong mid-list authors, to complete newbies whose books may or may not move well.

The combination of low prices and DRM-free eBooks has led to a situation where their eSales produce roughly 20% of gross (and a larger percentage of profit) -- even as their paper sales have continued to climb, and their authors get better royalties for eSales than for paper sales.

So p3aul: We have here a real-world case where a real publisher has had real success with ebooks, while providing a win-win-win situation for publisher, authors, and customers! With no DRM in sight. Is that, perhaps, worth paying attention to?

If not, why not?

Xenophon

[mjh215]

I was getting ready to write something up, but I think you all chased p3aul out of the thread.

The way my neck feels I don't mind skipping the post, or at least putting it off.

-MJ

[AlexBell]

Originally Posted by p3aul

Here we go again! Just carry on without me.

I'd really prefer that you stayed, and either refuted the argument presented against your contention, or acknowledged that you are wrong.

Regards, Alex

[mtravellerh]

Originally Posted by AlexBell

I'd really prefer that you stayed, and either refuted the argument presented against your contention, or acknowledged that you are wrong.

Regards, Alex

Does anyone mind if I just close the thread as we . I'll just leave it open for today and then close because it seems we are making a monologue right now!

[GeoffC]

Please do close it ....

[Dr. Drib]

Originally Posted by mtravellerh

Does anyone mind if I just close the thread as we . I'll just leave it open for today and then close because it seems we are making a monologue right now!

Yes, I would prefer it closed, too.

Like other "important" and "debated" subjects, unfortunately this particular thread is now a monologue due to p3aul having departed from us.

Therefore, I feel it would be judicious to close it, even though its topic is "important" enough to warrant a discussion - somewhere else.


Don

[daffy4u]

Originally Posted by Dr. Drib

Therefore, I feel it would be judicious to close it, even though its topic is "imporant" enough to warrant a discussion - somewhere else.

Don

Ahhh but *this* was the somewhere else (the 3rd one with p3aul as a matter of fact).

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by =X=

Okay well since you are the only resident duck in mobileread I will take your word for it.

My take is people just won't understand until they become eBook readers. THEN they'll get it.

=X=

excellent point.

[slayda]

But I like monologues!