DRM confusion

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by Penforhire

If Amazon would embrace Epub I would declare it the clear winner. Unfortunately they might have the legs (market share) to hold out a long time and continue muddying the format waters. I understand why, anything to help lock users into one store. Yes, we technical types can circumvent and translate but the majority will not.

They're locking in customers, but they're also locking out customers. Now that I've bought a non-Kindle, they don't want my business anymore.

[Falcao]

Originally Posted by Catlady

They're locking in customers, but they're also locking out customers.

Not me. I got most of my e-books from Amazon, then I liberate them and read them in my Sony. Just the best of two worlds

[JSWolf]

I have a Sony Reader PRS-650. It handles ePub with and without Adobe's Adept DRM.

Now, if I wanted to get a nook color, I could take all of the ePub I currently have and use them with the nook color without having to do anything to them. No need to convert, no left margin bug, nothing. I can use them as is if I want.

If I wanted an iPad, I could use them as is with Bluefire, txtr, or iBooks (since I've stripped the DRM).

I could buy a Pocketbook of some kind and my ePub are still good.

But really, there are more eBook shops selling ePub then any other eBook format these days. Library eBooks from Overdrive do not work on a Kindle so people who do not DRM strip cannot have library access with a Kindle.

So I do see more and more devices sold that give access to library eBooks and that excludes the Kindle. And that means those customers won't be buying eBooks from Amazon.

ePub has won. More devices, libraries, & more shops selling.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by paolamanzini

I am also new to the world of e-books, so forgive me if my point is misdirected. However:


Suppose I buy an e-book from amazon, and suppose my ebook reader does not handle this format. If I were to strip the DRM from that bought book to read it on my device, though I understand this may be contrary to the letter of the law, why would it go contrary to the substance?

And upon reflection, why would this go counter the letter of the law? After all, you are allowed to install a purchased piece fo software on several computers (e.g. you laptop, your home desktop, your workplace desktop, say) provided you only use it on one machine at a time. So why can't this be allowed for ebooks?

To me, it does not make sense, and if you have rightfully purchased the book, you should have the right to read it wherever you like. Amazon, if I understand this correctly, only allows you to read it on either Kindle or some backlit device (be it a pc, or an ipad, or an iphone), but not on another reader. So, a point also made somewhat differently already, it seems to me their point is really one of pushing the budle kindle+ebooks, i.e. to lock you in to amazon.

It is covered by circumvention of copy protection schemes, which trumps any "fair use" laws you might have in your country. The entertainment industry paid a lot of money for those laws, so they are here to stay.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by Falcao

This is a grey area. Buying DRMed content and then striping it for personal use can fall into fair use depending on the country. And moreover, even in the USA, with its crazy DMCA law, they only prosecute people who distribute copyrighted content.

It would be a bit muddier for the Kindle (and maybe other devices that are tied to one ebook shop). It is against the Amazon user agreement to remove DRM from anything you buy from them, and I would guess that they would have some way of checking when you go online with it.

[Fbone]

Originally Posted by SensualPoet

The two schemes: Adobe ADE, which has been adopted by the ePub side, and Amazon's encrypted mobi files effectively create a manageable gate.

It could be said there are three different schemes. B&N's DRM is unique enough to add confusion to ebook purchasers. While B&N doesnt lock you in they do lock others out namely Sony, Kobo and Pocketbook owners.

In general, the same content is widely available in both formats so whichever ereader you own, or whichever platform you choose, you'll have access to approximately the same universe of books.

Due to different DRM systems you may not have access to Amazon and B&N who according to Inkmesh have the largest selections at the lowest prices. And these two companies are familiar enough that people may comparison shop and notice the differences.

In general, ebooks are cheaper than new paperbacks in bricks and mortar stores so every ebook bought is money saved: ereaders pay for themselves in a few months for those who buy 2 or 3 books a month.

My next comment may refer only to the US and not Canada or worldwide. Unfortunately, ebook prices aren't as low as we expected or hoped for. Border's routinely offers 30-40% off all paperbacks and B&N has started 10-20% off sales. Add further discount to "members." This often brings the paper edition at or below the ebook price. Again people know and shop Amazon for other items may compare book prices too and become disgruntled. I just noticed Amazon selling Larsson's Dragon Tattoo paperback for 15 cents above the ebook price.

[EricLandes]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

ePub has won. More devices, libraries, & more shops selling.

And all of that put together has half (or less) the volume Amazon has. Every measure I've seen puts the Amazon market share somewhere around 70-75%.

How, exactly has ePub "won" when that's the case? I grant you it's the better format, and it's the only one where I can buy in one shop and read on multiple devices (natively) without circumventing DRM.

There are four major formats, btw: Apple ePub, B&N ePub, Adobe ePub, and Amazon. The vast majority do not know how (or want to know how) to circumvent DRM.

That said, there's Amazon apps on every multi-function device out there, pretty much. Of course, you can't read your Amazon books on any other dedicated eReader, but someone investing in the Amazon ecosystem is going to buy a Kindle, anyway.

[Boston]

While DRM and restriction to specific users or their devices is a publisher requirement, it was always my opinion that the different implementations of DRM were the booksellers trying to restrict buyers of their devices to buying from their stores.

[Jellby]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

Epub is a better format by every measure except filesize

For all the books I have created in mobi and ePUB format, the ePUB version is the smaller, most of the stuff being the same (particularly image sizes). Is that not being better?

[BWhite]

Originally Posted by EricLandes

And all of that put together has half (or less) the volume Amazon has. Every measure I've seen puts the Amazon market share somewhere around 70-75%.

How, exactly has ePub "won" when that's the case? I grant you it's the better format, and it's the only one where I can buy in one shop and read on multiple devices (natively) without circumventing DRM.

Looks like you answered your own question. You are using one kind of measuring stick - quantity - and the person you are discussing this issue with is using a different standard - flexibility and availability.

So you both need to agree on a common 'standard', I would think, to make progress.

Originally Posted by mr ploppy

It is covered by circumvention of copy protection schemes, which trumps any "fair use" laws you might have in your country. The entertainment industry paid a lot of money for those laws, so they are here to stay.

No. As someone who has served on a jury there is no 'trumps' in US of A courts. The REALITY is that if you have paid for the book the entertainment industry will tell you that you have broken the law and then your lawyer will advise you that no one is going to take you to court as long as YOU DO NOT DISTRIBUTE.

The author/publisher of the book are not going to go to trial because they have to toss the dice with a jury; with you having paid for the book and only stripped the DRM for personal use - pretty sure 99% of authors/publishers do not want to go up against those kind of odds during a trial.

And you are correct, the Entertainment Industry paid a lot of money for those laws (mainly the DMCA) and to take folks to court for only stripping off the DRM would ultimately just result in shortening the life of those laws. At least in the US of A with its saga of Prohibition.

The vast majority of juries, judges, congressmen are not going to fill up U.S. prisons with DRM Strippers. It even reads silly as I type it. Not going to happen.

[speedlever]

Originally Posted by paolamanzini

snip

To me, it does not make sense, and if you have rightfully purchased the book, you should have the right to read it wherever you like. Amazon, if I understand this correctly, only allows you to read it on either Kindle or some backlit device (be it a pc, or an ipad, or an iphone), but not on another reader. So, a point also made somewhat differently already, it seems to me their point is really one of pushing the budle kindle+ebooks, i.e. to lock you in to amazon.

And you have nailed the point far more eloquently than I. What the heck difference does it make what device I choose to read it on.. regardless whether I've purchased the ebook or borrowed it from the library?

Originally Posted by mr ploppy

It would be a bit muddier for the Kindle (and maybe other devices that are tied to one ebook shop). It is against the Amazon user agreement to remove DRM from anything you buy from them, and I would guess that they would have some way of checking when you go online with it.

So by this, I would infer that I could legally use Calibre to strip DRM from library ebooks to read on the K3? But just not strip DRM from purchased books? (why would I want to?)

Also, how can I tell if an ebook in question is DRM or not? Is there some way to tell before I d/l it?

(Since I haven't d/l any books ... don't even have an ereader yet... I'm assuming this is how it works).

While I prefer not to have to jump through hoops to get the ebook on my device, I'm enough of a geek that I'm comfortable doing so but don't want to run afoul of the legal issues... whatever they may be.

Thus far I've checked into a few titles that my daughter has bought and read (paperbacks) and the ebook price may be $1 less than the paperback. Yikes. That's not exactly encouraging either. Also, some of it is available from the library and some is not. Whereas I typically read a book once and am done with it, she loves to read a favorite book over and over again. (I'm shopping for her for a Christmas gift and am becoming intrigued by the ereaders myself.)

I gather I missed all the hoopla earlier in the year when the Agency crap hit the fan resulting in higher ebook pricing.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by speedlever

So by this, I would infer that I could legally use Calibre to strip DRM from library ebooks to read on the K3? But just not strip DRM from purchased books? (why would I want to?)

Also, how can I tell if an ebook in question is DRM or not? Is there some way to tell before I d/l it?

No, one is covered by law, the other is covered by both law and the user agreement you would have with Amazon. While "the law" might not bother taking action against you, that doesn't necessarily mean that Amazon won't.

Some writers will say in their blurb that it doesn't have any DRM restrictions, but most don't. You would probably be safest assuming that they all do.

[BWhite]

Originally Posted by speedlever

I gather I missed all the hoopla earlier in the year when the Agency crap hit the fan resulting in higher ebook pricing.

You have not really missed it, more like you have landed in the middle of it. It is still going on. If you look elsewhere in these forums there is at least one thread where people are giving their estimates for how long this 'war' between the Publishers and their eBook Customers is going to continue.

Some say years.

Probably if you are not technology-oriented you will want to go with the Amazon camp. If are technology-oriented and I say 'software scripts' to you and that means something then you have a chance to go with buying books and removing the DRM.

Is it easy? Some on these boards say 'yes it is' and some say 'no'. The majority are probably in the 'yes' camp.

If you are intending to buy books for your daughter then you will probably want to set up a library/directory for her non-DRM books (if you go that route) and have a backup for that location. I am presuming that having non-DRM books laying around in a family situation (his/hers/daughter/son) will ultimately get quite messy over the years.

If big companies turn you off, something that happens from time to time on these boards, then you may want to check out
http://www.kobobooks.com/
which is a good site to browse to see how the smaller companies are dealing with the DRM mess. Look over at the upper right and you will see
Free Apps
and
eReader
which links you can click on and you will see how the smaller companies have to compete with Amazon by providing applications to read on a multitude of devices and then their own, individual, hardware reader.

Kobobooks sells books with DRM, just not Amazon's DRM. Will you be able to read Kobo DRM books in 20 years when Kobo no longer exists? I have no idea. Will you be able to read Kobo DRM books in 60 years when Adobe no longer exists? I have no idea.

Calibre does not automatically strip off DRM, it has to be set up to do so. So just downloading Calibre will not do it for you. You have to do more research, using Google.

Your most sure-fire, easy, way to go, is to buy an ereader for your daughter from Amazon and set up an account for her with Amazon. The next best bet would be to step into the Adobe DRM camp (Adobe Digital Editions). When you purchase a book, using a PC with Digital Editions on it, the book is transferred onto the PC, inside of Digital Editions, and Adobe DE has its own rules for which devices it will do side-loading onto. A device list is found here:
http://blogs.adobe.com/digitalpublis...ported-devices

Here is the problem:
a) are you talking about getting ebooks for your daughter to get her through the next couple of years
or
b) since daughters tend to grow up are you talking about setting up a digital library she can take with her when she is twenty?

b) is a big deal, and will probably stretch your and our patience!

[Falcao]

Originally Posted by mr ploppy

It is covered by circumvention of copy protection schemes, which trumps any "fair use" laws you might have in your country. The entertainment industry paid a lot of money for those laws, so they are here to stay.

Really?

Last time I checked, USA laws don't apply outside there.

[Falcao]

Originally Posted by mr ploppy

It would be a bit muddier for the Kindle (and maybe other devices that are tied to one ebook shop). It is against the Amazon user agreement to remove DRM from anything you buy from them, and I would guess that they would have some way of checking when you go online with it.

Some way like black magic?