Amazon reconfigures its Kindle site; reviewers call it "creepy"

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by anamardoll

Because some things aren't any of the employer's business. If every employer in the country banded together and came up with a contract that THOU SHALT NOT HAVE SEX FOR IT IS A BAD INFLUENCE ON THE CHILDRENS, should we all choose between screwing and starving?

I understand all that, and I agree completely with your opinion on the subject of "none of your business," but the time to say "it's none of your business" is BEFORE you sign a contract that may make it their business. I would never sign a contract that had an ambiguous moral conduct clause. Neither should anyone else who truly believes it's "none of their business."

This is the employment version of the "if you don't like it, leave" argument, and it is no less silly in an employment context than it was in a community context.

No. This is completely different. This is the "if you don't like the terms, then don't sign the contract" argument. Quite a huge distinction in my eyes.

Originally Posted by anamardoll

EDIT: Unless we're strictly referring to the Amazon account stuff. Which it seems you were. Disregard my fervor, in that case.

I was strictly referring to the amazon account stuff in that instance. Fervor duly disregarded.

[anamardoll]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I understand all that, and I agree completely with your opinion on the subject of "none of your business," but the time to say "it's none of your business" is BEFORE you sign a contract that may make it their business. I would never sign a contract that had an ambiguous moral conduct clause. Neither should anyone else who truly believes it's "none of their business."

No. This is completely different. This is the "if you don't like the terms, then don't sign the contract" argument. Quite a huge distinction in my eyes.

Well, let me give you a little rundown of my history on this. (And thank you for taking my fervor in stride.)

I went to a private college that I pretty much *had* to go to or my parents would have disowned and disenfranchised me. It was our church college, and state colleges are dens of sin and iniquity, you see. I was 18 and a very fervent member of the church, so the contract clause -- No ANYTHING, or we throw you out. -- seemed reasonable because it reflected my beliefs at the time. But please don't kid yourself that because I was a legal adult I had a "choice" -- I wasn't going to choose to live on the streets over this contract that I had to sign.

Two years later, I was a very different person, but still under the same contract. I could leave at any time, but my classes wouldn't transfer and neither would my classes. I was stuck. In the meantime, I saw these contract clauses enforced cruelly against genuinely innocent people, and in some cases used to blackmail other students. Several girls were expelled under the "no sex, no pregnancy" clause because they were raped and got pregnant. (My aunt went to that school as well. She never finished her degree because they kicked her out when she got married.) The school counselor regularly broke confidentiality and got students expelled or blackmailed based on recorded conversations.

For myself, I was hauled up before the court, so to speak, for lending my car to my boyfriend: the school had literally assigned someone to follow my car around and failed to notice that I walked back to the dorm after dropping the car off. The car was there overnight, so I must have been too! Fortunately, the cameras and badge scanners on campus proved that I was telling the truth, but not until after the expulsion process had been started. The only thing that protected me from expulsion or blackmail was that I was the favorite of an influential teacher who stepped in on my behalf. Otherwise, I would have never finished my degree.

It's not enough to say "don't sign a contract if you don't believe in it". People change over time but they don't have the power to renegotiate their contract -- they have to be fired or get a new job, no easy thing in this economy. Meanwhile, as Apple as proved (IT'S THE CONVERSATION SINGULARITY!), the party holding the power in a contract can "renegotiate" at will when they please, because the contract is always written that way. And even if you DO follow the contract, these contracts can be abused so easily that it's not even funny. Suing for the abuse is a joke and simply will not work.

Jobs are not optional -- they're required in order to eat. Employers are in a position of power where they can write ANYTHING into a contract and we'll sign because we have to have a job. The government protects us from some forms of contract clauses ("I.e., I promise to have sex with my boss or be fired.) but we need more protections ("I.e., I promise not to have gay sex or be fired.").

Certainly, ANYTHING an employee does off company time/property should not be considered grounds for sacking except in very serious circumstances.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by anamardoll

The government protects us from some forms of contract clauses ("I.e., I promise to have sex with my boss or be fired.) but we need more protections ("I.e., I promise not to have gay sex or be fired.").

Certainly, ANYTHING an employee does off company time/property should not be considered grounds for sacking except in very serious circumstances.

Again, I agree with your views and I truly wish reality conformed them. However, I'm just pointing out what IS and what I (or anybody) can reasonably do about it RIGHT NOW.

Everybody has to make compromises for employment, but you don't get to cry; "That's not fair!" AFTER your pen said; "I guess I can live with that." Unless you want to reduce an employment contract to nothing more than a document you blindly sign and then promptly forget about until you fall afoul of one of its clauses. They're important... and you should be sure that you can abide by their terms before you accept any of their money. Even a hungry belly doesn't change that in my eyes.

[anamardoll]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Again, I agree with your views and I truly wish reality conformed them. However, I'm just pointing out what IS and what I (or anybody) can reasonably do about it RIGHT NOW.

Everybody has to make compromises for employment, but you don't get to cry; "That's not fair!" AFTER your pen said; "I guess I can live with that." Unless you want to reduce an employment contract to nothing more than a document you blindly sign and then promptly forget about until you fall afoul of one of its clauses. They're important... and you should be sure that you can abide by their terms before you accept any of their money. Even a hungry belly doesn't change that in my eyes.

I think there's a middle ground between "let's ignore everything in a contract" and "let's let contracts mandate employee behavior that doesn't concern the company".

Saying "well, they shouldn't have signed the contract" is -- imho -- unhelpful because it's stated from a position of privilege. You aren't staring at the choice between a vaguely worded contract of "Godly Behavior" that may or may not be used to fire you at any time versus starving and homelessness.

Lucky you.

[DiapDealer]

Saying "well, they shouldn't have signed the contract" is -- imho -- unhelpful because it's stated from a position of privilege.

Actually, no it's not. I'm stating it—in no uncertain terms—from a position of personal integrity. I don't give my word unless I know I can keep it—even when keeping it gets hard. That same personal integrity has kept me currently unemployed for a lot longer than I had initially planned, but still the captain of my own fate. High horse? Arguably. But position of privilege? Not even close.

I'm afraid we'll have to be done here... because we agree too often to let one disagreement jeopardize future interactions.

[anamardoll]

I can agree to disagree.

It's just as well you don't agree with me ALL the time -- the world doesn't need two identical Anas. I'd have to kill you. THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE!

[GoSharks]

Originally Posted by anamardoll

It's just as well you don't agree with me ALL the time -- the world doesn't need two identical Anas. I'd have to kill you. THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE!

"One Ana to rule them all........" huh, kind of catchy!

[anamardoll]

Originally Posted by GoSharks

"One Ana to rule them all........" huh, kind of catchy!

One Ana to rule them all,
one Ana to karma them.
One Ana to bring them all,
and in the darkness...BURMA!

("Why'd you say 'Burma'?"
"I panicked.")

Sorry. Monty Python on the brain today. In other news, I'm tired of all this sex on the television...

[luqmaninbmore]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Actually, no it's not. I'm stating it—in no uncertain terms—from a position of personal integrity. I don't give my word unless I know I can keep it—even when keeping it gets hard. That same personal integrity has kept me currently unemployed for a lot longer than I had initially planned, but still the captain of my own fate. High horse? Arguably. But position of privilege? Not even close.

I'm afraid we'll have to be done here... because we agree too often to let one disagreement jeopardize future interactions.

Why not get off the high horse and get down among the people and work to shape the law so that such clauses are just as void as those which would require you not marry someone of a different race? We should not be forced, as a matter of course, to choose between our integrity and eating. The answer isn't to whine and complain or act like some ubermensch above the fray, but to change the concrete situation.

[DiapDealer]

The answer isn't to whine and complain or act like some ubermensch above the fray, but to change the concrete situation.

I'm confused... which one was I doing by expecting people to read a contract and make a conscious, well thought-out decision on whether or not they see any potential stumbling blocks with the terms of the contract before signing it? Whining, complaining or ubermensching? And exactly how many people on the verge of starvation are interviewing for the teaching jobs that we've been discussing? I refuse to be the bad guy for suggesting that people not view their employment contracts as guidelines where you get to pick and choose the parts you want to ignore (whether those parts seem atrocious or not). Read them carefully and consider how it might be construed, ask questions about the details. Consult an outside source about it if you feel you must. The point is, if you don't do all that first... you don't really have a pot to piss in later.

[anamardoll]

Re: Starving, Homelessness, and Teaching Jobs, lots of people who teach don't have a lot of other eating options, I'm afraid. Teaching is one thing that a lot of "I have a degree and can't get a job" people do because the teaching certificate is pretty easy to get. I should know, because I very nearly became a teacher for that very reason. Turns out it's tricky to get a job on an English degree. Fortunately, I come from enough money that my family could pay for me to go back to school. My philosophy major friends were not so lucky.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by anamardoll

You didn't mean it that way, but it could have come off that way to someone who doesn't know you very well.

I definitely didn't mean it that way.

I simply meant:
- pass... if the contract clearly includes some sort of "conduct becoming" clause that you know you will fall short of (unless you plan on abiding).
- ask... if it seems vague or unclear (before signing).
- fight... if you think you were tricked with ambiguous wording and unjustly fired.

My beef is only with people who read a contract that clearly indicates they will be held to a certain "higher standard" in the community (alcohol, conduct, whatever) while working there... and know beforehand that they probably won't be able to live up to that standard, and sign the contract anyway. Then bitch later when a picture turns up on Facebook showing them passed out nude hugging a bottle of Jack Daniels.

Does that make my position any clearer?

[linux_author]

i don't mind this - especially since on Facebook i'm an 80-year-old handicapped Afghani woman living in a zipcode 3,000 miles from where i really live...

isn't the Internet wonderful?

[GoSharks]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

a picture turns up on Facebook showing them passed out nude hugging a bottle of Jack Daniels.

If there are pictures like this out there, I've really got to join Facebook!!

[Shimarenda]

Thanks for the heads-up on this. I do have a Facebook account, but this is one of the main reasons I don't link it to anything else.