Should Amazon sell Kindle service to Sony?

[Liviu_5]

Originally Posted by Alisa

I agree. I doubt Sony is making much of a profit if any on their Readers. They need to sell content to make it worthwhile which makes it less attractive to them to add .azw support even if Amazon let them.

If Sony (or Amazon for that matter) is not making good money on the hardware they would be wise to get out since it's very hard and tricky to make loads of money on e-content.

[JohnClif]

Amazon would have to offer a licensed AZW ereader to manufacturers of competing devices, and this software would most likely have to be included in the specific device's footprint (with the possible exception of the iRex).

Note also that the Kindle most likely doesn't let the user see the entire file system. What is seen when the Kindle is acting as a USB drive is certainly somewhere below the root of the onboard storage volume. I'd bet that there's a 'rights' file somewhere that users can't access, but Kindle firmware can, that ensures an AZW file on a particular device 'belongs' to that user (via device serial # registered w/Amazon).

So, while I can see Amazon working with other ereader manufacturers, I can't ever see this as something Amazon would offer direct to the user. Actually, unless another ereader takes off, I can't see Amazon working with other ereaders. Where's the benefit to Amazon? It would be like Apple working with another music player manufacturer so that the latter could support iTunes.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by dugbug

I feel the kindle is a better design than the Sony. It has always-on internet and delivery mechanism, a keyboard, faster paging, fast-line selection/dictionary lookup, wikipedia integration, etc. And since the store is far superior, where is the need for amazon to do anything? They have an always-on connection to the store, and a huge store of services.

Lets see what their sales are though. To date I don't know anything has been announced. But the Sony over the kindle? No way.

If you leave the wifi always-on, good luck when the battery dies after 2 days or so.

[rationalbiker]

It sounds like the Kindle is not for some people. It has features they don't want so they should probably find a reader that better suits their needs.

Other people, many other people it would seem, appear to want the features offered by the Kindle and find the device very purposeful. Those folks should probably buy the Kindle instead of the other readers.

Isn't it great that some folks can be happy with their Sony while others are happy with their Kindle? Isn't a choice between different devices a good thing so that each different person has a better chance of finding what best fits his or her needs?

The irony is that is seems that every time the next "big thing" comes out, folks frequently complain that it has too much or too little, that it doesn't work well for them, that what they already have is better, yada, yada, yada. But if one device comes out that hordes and hordes of people find purposeful to them, other people complain that that company that makes that device is trying to be a monopoly to take over the world. Imagine if the Kindle had came out and it was exactly what most people wanted. Lots of people would be happy about that, but others would still complain about "monopolies" and "evil companies" if Amazon all of a sudden took the lion's share of the e-reader market. As it happens, that may very much be the case, but I suppose time will tell.

In the case of Apple and iTunes, it's popular because it is a device with a service that lots of people really enjoy. Apple is not evil for providing a product that people are devouring. If anyone would be to blame it would be the people, who without force, go and buy the iPod and iTunes. Apple could not have been so successful with that device if it did not meet the needs and desires of LOTS of consumers.

I like the Kindle because of what it does for me. I like my iPod because of what it does for me. This has absolutely nothing to do with whether other people enjoy their Sonys or their Zunes. I'm happy for them that they have found devices serve their purpose.

Come on folks, isn't that a good thing?

[PHugger]

Let's look for a minute at their core businesses -

• Amazon does a great job of selling books (and other stuff)
• Sony excels at the design, manufacture and sales of consumer electronics

Now let's look at their subsidiary businesses -

• Sony does a poor job of selling books (Connect is feeble)
• Amazon's first attempt at designing and selling a consumer electronics gadget was less than stellar (it looks like it was designed by Google, lots of functions, but just plain ugly and not polished)

Amazon decided to use the Kindle to promote book sales in the electronic format. Making the move into consumer electronics is a big step and may not be the wisest decision ever made in the business world. It seems that someone has decided that, 'Hey we can make some money on this thing.' This is a big change for them and they may not be suited to this new market. This is their first attempt at designing a product in this market - perhaps a bit arrogant to assume that success in one business makes you smart enough to succeed in another where you have no experience. Sony falls into the same trap - they need a successful bookstore for the Reader to succeed. It's a slightly more familiar model that parallels the MP3 Player/Music Store model.

What I think would be great and won't likely ever happen is that Amazon will offer it's content to the Sony Reader market. As long as the Kindle is in the picture, this isn't going to happen. Perhaps Borders can put the Sony Reader on a more even content footing with the Kindle. Currently I'm far from starving for content on my Sony Reader, but having more options is very appealing. I wouldn't give up my Sony Reader for the current Kindle (I already carry other gadgets that far outshine it's added features), but I am jealous of the Amazon store and their book marketing muscle.




PCH

[rationalbiker]

Originally Posted by PHugger

[*]Amazon's first attempt at designing and selling a consumer electronics gadget was less than stellar

I'm really not sure what standard you are using to gauge "less than stellar" by. Apparently quite a few people have determined it is the device they prefer over the Sony. Are you just basing this off the fact that you don't like how it looks instead of its functionality?

Making the move into consumer electronics is a big step and may not be the wisest decision ever made in the business world.

Then again, maybe it will be. Just being 3 months into their venture with a consistently sold out product and what appears to be a 6-7 week back order in demand could suggest either or both of two things; their supply line is too limited or their demand is too great. The later would offer initial indications of success rather than failure. Add this the fact that eBay has a bustling (though slowing) secondary market for the Kindle at prices higher than Amazon and that is another indicator of success. Personally, I think 3 months time is not enough to make the call either way. Let's see where the Kindle and Amazon's ebook sales are in a year.

'Hey we can make some money on this thing.'

I would hope so. That's what businesses do, determing products or services that consumers need with the intent to make profit. Wouldn't be much of a business if they didn't do that.

This is their first attempt at designing a product in this market - perhaps a bit arrogant to assume that success in one business makes you smart enough to succeed in another where you have no experience.

When they first stepped into selling books online perhaps it was arrogant to assume that they could successfully compete against brick and mortar stores. The nerve of those upstarts.

Businesses expand and enter new territories all the time, typically not based on arrogance but on calculated risk. That can be the sign of a good business and of a good businessman; taking risks. While some may characterize risk-takers as arrogant, I would characterize this particular risk as bold instead.

As long as the Kindle is in the picture, this isn't going to happen. Perhaps Borders can put the Sony Reader on a more even content footing with the Kindle. Currently I'm far from starving for content on my Sony Reader, but having more options is very appealing.

Yes, more device options is certainly appealing as well. This is a great reason to hope the Kindle is successful. Strong (arrogant) competition from Amazon may spur other device makers to sweeten the pots for their readers. It's called competition and it's generally considered a good thing for consumers. Competition requires that companies do not just rest on their laurels, that they stay sharp in improving their products and services.

While it is hard to determine anything of real measure with comparative sales figures, I've read more than a few posts in different forums about people being brought into the e-reader world for the first time by the Kindle. That coupled with quite a few glowing reviews suggests it may be premature to call Amazon's venture a failure or "less than stellar".

Time will tell. Until then, hurrah to the arrogant upstarts of the world!

[nekokami]

I think Amazon will continue to limit Kindle service until they sell through their initial investment into the hardware. (Just because they're back-ordered, doesn't mean they haven't paid for more units than they have currently. And there's the design cost to consider, too.) After that happens, Amazon will have to decide if they want to stay in the cut-throat world of consumer electronics, or play to their strengths as book sellers. I think their best bet would be the second strategy -- open up the format more and sell as many books as possible to be read on as wide a range of devices as possible.

The only other potential obstacle I see is the book publishers, who may have demanded the tight lock on the Kindle hardware in order to allow their content to be sold. Hopefully they'll come to their senses soon as well, and realize that limiting customer use limits sales, and there's lots and lots of money to be made by opening up the limitations a little.

[snookums]

The later would offer initial indications of success rather than failure.

I'm not trying to be a jerk to you. I just want to point out that the word you are thinking of is latter not later.

[rationalbiker]

Originally Posted by snookums

I'm not trying to be a jerk to you. I just want to point out that the word you are thinking of is latter not later.

You are correct, thanks for noticing.

[PHugger]

Originally Posted by rationalbiker

I'm really not sure what standard you are using to gauge "less than stellar" by. Apparently quite a few people have determined it is the device they prefer over the Sony. Are you just basing this off the fact that you don't like how it looks instead of its functionality?

Both actually - I realize how something appeals to you visually is quite personal, but that is not exactly what I'm talking about. It's design leaves a lot to be desired IMHO and this reflects directly on it's appearance. It has some nifty features that hold no appeal for me (they may be great for others I admit). It has almost as nice a screen as the Sony so we can that area even. I have no need for Whispernet and find that I can delay any need to perform research that I uncover while reading. I'm left with a plastic gadget that has a pitiful membrane keyboard and a poorly thought out page buttons. The only place you can hold it is by the keyboard. It has an odd shape. The reading experience is the main thing. Maybe it will improve, but in my admittedly limited experience with one, I find that reading has suffered at the expense of features. Maybe I'm too fussy - I wish the Sony Reader had a more prominent right-hand next page button. So you could find it by feel. Yes, I'm getting used to it now, but it could easily be much better. I wish the Sony Reader had faster menu/TOC access. It's painfully slow and at first I would press buttons several times before something happened. This is inexcusable IMHO. I hope they are listening. I even feel that the music player on the Sony Reader is poorly implemented and not needed. I can ignore this feature fairly easily though. It has little effect on the overall design - more of an afterthought. I too hope the Kindle continues to sell well. Competition is good for everyone - I would hate to see another Apple iPod - iTunes - iTunes Store monopoly develop - at least Apple knows how to design with style.



PCH

[rationalbiker]

Originally Posted by PHugger

It has some nifty features that hold no appeal for me (they may be great for others I admit).

And that is the key. Very few things appeal to everyone.

I guess my main objection may be a semantic one at times. Some folks make statements about things as though they are universally true instead of recognizing that they are merely reflecting how much of a value (or disvalue) something is to them. The difference would be seen in these to statements;

1) The Kindle is a failure.

2) The Kindle fails to interest me.

... poorly thought out page buttons.

The buttons work well for me. but if they reduced the size of the next page button on the right side a little it wouldn't bother me.

My thumb fits well between the keyboard and the screen on either side making each page button easily a short muscle memory away.

The only feature "unnecessary" for me is the mp3 player. That said, I still may use in on occasion.

While my main interest if functionality, my opinion on the aesthetics are like this; the Sony is cold and sterile looking whereas the Kindle design has character. The Kindle design says, "I'm not like the other readers." Clearly this can work both ways in terms of its appeal to consumers

I would hate to see another Apple iPod - iTunes - iTunes Store monopoly develop

But they don't have a monopoly. There are a host of other players out there and a host of other music services out there. Their lion's share of the market is based on them producing a device and a service that fits many, many people's needs and desires. I would suggest that should this happen to the Kindle it would be for the same reason.

[astra]

Originally Posted by rationalbiker

The only feature "unnecessary" for me is the mp3 player. That said, I still may use in on occasion.

Sony also has this "unnecessary" feature . I have never used it and am not going to

[recycledelectron]

As a Sony PRS-505 owner, I dont' care about DRM-infected-excrement. Amazon's store is useless for ebooks. I'll buy a paper book from them and rip it myself, but I will not buy their ebooks.

This is like people ripping CDs, and ignoring pay-per-song online DRM-infected music downloads.

Andy

[snookums]

I just wanted to point out that the Kindle comes with a screenshot function built-in. You could flip and click through all of the pages unless there is some kind of limit on the number of screenshots per book. From there, Optical Character Recognition is just a few clicks away. Anyone who has actually tried to convert one of their paper books to txt using OCR can tell you that the big hassle is getting the text straight. OCR software usually blows it when the text isn't strictly horizontal. Even a little slant lowers recognition. That issue would be completely moot if you used the Kindle's screenshots.

note: I'm not advocating that anyone rip Kindle books and post them on the darknet. I'm just pointing out that the Kindle's drm is trivially bypassed.

[cfw123]

It's important to me to be ethical, and deal only with ethical businesses. But before you get the wrong idea, I consider DRM to be unethical, as we have copyright laws to do what they are trying to do with brute force. Rather I would consider it totally ethical for programmers capable of writing format conversion programs to take a .AZW file from a Kindle, unloaded from the Kindle to a hard disk using the supplied USB cable, and convert it back to a format that can be edited or printed by about any PC owner.

Fortunately in the EU of Europe, some countries are considering outlawing the use of DRM whether for text, music, or what have you. Maybe when that happens we can get the "bought" politicians in this country to give up such illegal income and pass laws in support of our basic copyright laws, and make anything else -- like DRM -- illegal.

Charles Wilkes, San Jose, Calif.