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Old 04-27-2010, 12:25 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by kindlekitten View Post
I just close my e-reader cover and put in the pocket in front of me. these "turn off" regulations are left overs from when the technology was not completely understood. there is one airline, I can't remember which that has allowed cell phone usage for quite awhile and another one that is ramping up the ability to have in flight wi-fi. military flying on commercial birds for years have had all of their bells and whistles on and functioning
I will never put my reader in the pocket in the seat in front. I'll not risk forgetting it there.
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Old 04-27-2010, 12:38 PM   #197
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Firstoff, I would like to thank TimS for posting a bunch of studies. It shows that there are extremely rare cases where electronics might affect instrumentation, but at least gives some slight basis for rules.

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They might, not really a big deal though, if you look at a track of most GPSs you can buy, you will see points where there is a straight line jump from one position to the next, generally this is an area where the GPS isn't tracking, and doesn't get a point or so. Not a big deal on your cell phone, car navigation, hiking, etc, and generally within the specs for a consumer GPS, take the Magellan Maestro 4700, it's specs for resolution "GPS Accuracy 3-5 meters", which is much better than used to be available with SA enabled.
My GPS can be set to pull data at specific intervals. I presume that is what happens here.

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Now, wrt trying to harden a plane to consumer devices, it is almost an impossible task. You would have to get every conceivable device, and test those in all combinations with all combinations of planes to prove there can't be a problem (probably add in the mix every possible location in the plane for each device on each plane). Everytime a product is introduced or update, or a new plane is introduced, or something is changed on a plane, you would need to re-do these. Worst scenario is a new consumer device introduced or a device changed, since all combinations would need to be tried. All devices would need to be tested until the last one fell out of use.
Not really, because you are only interested in certain frequencies and possibly their harmonics.

Since most devices are quite limited in the frequencies that they can transmit, things become much easier.

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That would be the only way to prove your device can't cause problems.
You truly cannot 'prove' that the device cannot cause problems. All you can ever hope to do is to demonstrate that the probability of serious problems means that the rule is worth the cost (in time and resources) of enforcing that rule.

And given the low probabilities shown in these studies, I think that we already have reasons why the rule is not worth even the time it takes to turn the devices off.

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Do you really want to trust the lives of several hundred passengers and crew of an airliner to Adam and Jamie?
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But it's not only phones that have to be shut off. I was asked to turn of my digital camera! How would you block that?
Back in the late '90s, I took a digital camera with me on a cruise. When I went through customs, they kept insisting that I needed to open the back of the camera and show them the film.

It took 15 minutes and taking a picture before we got through with it. Taking the picture was risky, because we could have gotten pulled aside for doing it for not obeying Customs officials. But they were not familiar with the technology and so wanted to stick to an archaic rule.
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Old 04-27-2010, 01:08 PM   #198
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What is true though, I have seen the EM reports on products, one connector (say USB for arguments sake) from manufacturer A will leak EM horribly, a connector that looks to the naked eye as identical from manufacturer B will not leak.
And? The entire point is that A should be caught in testing. You won't catch everything, but you can catch the egregious offenders.

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In the US it is currently a felony to refuse to follow the instructions of a flight crew, are you willing to risk arrest to read your kindle?
How, precisely, is the flight crew going to tell that the ereader in your bag is sitting at a page or if you've blanked the screen? But no, don't blank the screen and you're going to jail.

Sigh.

These devices are on now. There is one case of an air accident where mobile phones were possibly associated, and the accident review found otherwise. (Unless you count the United 93 flight crash as "caused by mobile phones"...which is true in some ways but utterly disingenuous as a claim even so). The disaster situations simply haven't happened, and aircraft are flying every day in Europe with mobiles being used in flight.

Sigh again.

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Old 04-27-2010, 03:51 PM   #199
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Yes, but what I am saying is, the testing isn't designed to catch everything. The rules for consumer devices don't require it, so it isn't always done. And when you do catch one, a FW change can change the emissions from the device.

For example, continue the previous train of thought. The stub at 10MHz, the radiated EM from that is blocked by the connector, at 50MHz, it shoots through. That isn't normally caught in testing.

The big thing about the rules, they are in place for seeing you safely from point A to point B. If you are inconvenienced for a brief time during take-off and landing, the rules don't care, since the goal is safe delivery of hundreds of people. To remove such restrictions, someone needs to convince the rule makers the potential risk is worth removing the inconvenience.

In Europe, are the phones allowed to be used during takeoff and landing? I agree, I don't think the likelihood is high that they will cause a problem, but I'm not the one that has to agree to remove the restrictions, I'm just pointing out that EM is not as easy as some here want to believe.

If I am reading the normal specs of the ASSPs driving most e-readers, I think we are dealing with at least a dozen fundamental frequencies in the device, and if it has good power management, probably many more than that.

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Old 04-27-2010, 03:57 PM   #200
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In Europe, are the phones allowed to be used during takeoff and landing?
Nope (and they want the ability to block calls on takeoff/landing, which they can't currently do because many countries have a blanket ban on mobile "jamming" of any sort). The issue I raise, again, which nobody has yet addressed, is why I should "turn off" the ereader sat in my bag on a page, rather than it being on a blank screen. And why I'm going to jail for that, apparently.

And yes, you've identified lax procedures in testing for EM, which need fixing..
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Old 04-27-2010, 05:34 PM   #201
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Old 04-27-2010, 05:57 PM   #202
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@DawnFalcon: The thing about eink readers is that they are essentially in an "off" state if you aren't changing pages. So you are in compliance and won't go to jail for having it in the condition you have stated, because you are in compliance.

I can't speak to any other reasons you might have to go to jail, though.

Last edited by pshrynk; 04-27-2010 at 05:57 PM. Reason: Clearing up confusion from simulposting.
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Old 04-27-2010, 09:18 PM   #203
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Rather sad to read through this thread - dam, courtesy seems to be well and truely dying.

When I fly it's usually longhaul. So switching off my reader for the half hour either side really doesn't matter all that much. And yes, I think it's not necessary having been on flights were nearly every passenger happily was talking on the mobile phones and we didn't crash (obviously ).

Nevertheless, why put the staff through the stress? They are doing their job. It's courteous to follow their instructions. (Yep, I was raised under the old school system ).

And as the thread shows, no one really knows if it does harm or not - I am not talking about the ONE reader you might use, but the 300-400 devices every passenger has in the pockets / bags.

As someone mentioned previously: it's the airlines plane, they can impose any darn rule they want. You don't like it, stay at home or take another airline.

Be nice and switch off - lot less stress for the flight attendants and the passengers around you.
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Old 04-27-2010, 09:35 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by pshrynk View Post
@DawnFalcon: The thing about eink readers is that they are essentially in an "off" state if you aren't changing pages. So you are in compliance and won't go to jail for having it in the condition you have stated, because you are in compliance.

I can't speak to any other reasons you might have to go to jail, though.
Well yes, pshrynk, this is my point about eink readers.

As to the other, I can't possibly comment.


Katti's Cat - If you want politeness, don't repeat the lapdog corporate mastery nonsense. It's seriously annoying to Europeans, we don't always let corporations ran rampant over our rights...

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Old 04-27-2010, 09:41 PM   #205
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Katti's Cat - If you want politeness, don't repeat the lapdog corporate mastery nonsense. It's seriously annoying to Europeans, we don't always let corporations ran rampant over our rights...
Well, I am European too - and being polite doesn't hurt me as much as people who think that their individual rights come before the convenience of the crowd. Don't you English believe in the old 'my home is my castle' saying. So why do you think that you can do as you please in other people's places/homes? That's just rude.
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Old 04-27-2010, 10:18 PM   #206
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That saying does not apply to corporate domains. It came about because of a specific old English law which related to the (male) master of the house having the legal right at one time to determine if someone could enter or not at only his discretion. It has nothing to do with corporations (which are of course only a legal fiction and cannot exercise the right, not being male...).

Sorry, not helping your case there.

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Old 04-27-2010, 10:27 PM   #207
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So you are saying that you can do what you please on a plane that is not yours?

Seems you have a problem with corporations - sure, they aren't all that flash - but I still think that not following instructions on their planes is rude.

I am not arguing the point of them being right or wrong , good or evil. I am just saying that putting flight attendants to the test during flight is RUDE. They are doing their job and anyone being rude to them is addressing their gripe with the corporation at the wrong place.

And Corporations are considered legal persons - so while the 'my home is my castle' rule is not totally applicable , legally it would be. As far as I know, any airline company has the right to refuse you entry to the plane / flight.
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Old 04-27-2010, 10:45 PM   #208
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Corporations are "legal persons", but again unlike other parts of the world their rights are severely restricted. A corporation does not have gender, for example and hence cannot sue for discrimination against it on those grounds, or apply the castle law, since that was only and specifically vested in males. Once more, bad example.

Airlines can only refuse insofar as they comply with all relevant law. This is a far cry from say... "go away, blackie", which you are claiming they could apply, if they could refuse service on any grounds. That age is, rightly, long past and it's disgusting when there are repeated calls for a return to that era in a thread like this! (Because that IS a direct consequence of the suggesting, and the Castle law was absolute, even to the King (in theory))

And I have not suggested "putting flight attendants to the test", I don't know who the heck you're replying to there, but it's not me.

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Old 04-27-2010, 10:50 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by pshrynk View Post
@DawnFalcon: The thing about eink readers is that they are essentially in an "off" state if you aren't changing pages. So you are in compliance and won't go to jail for having it in the condition you have stated, because you are in compliance.

I can't speak to any other reasons you might have to go to jail, though.
I think the idea of a felony for not following the instructions of the flight crew is bogus, however, that is currently the law. If they wanted to press the issue, you could be charged, and would be responsible to then show to the prosecutor/court you followed the instructions. I think this law has been abused more than it has helped, but that is the current state. I am hoping the tide is changing on this one.

Some of them are in effect off, however, this is not an accurate blanket statement.

It is possible to actually have the system off and a page displayed with e-ink, but I don't think most of the readers do that, I think most go into a deep sleep (not quite off), and some go to a lower power but not sleep state.

So again, you are asking the rule makers to trust users to actually know the state of their device and they will know if it is off, almost off, or still active. BTW, most even in a deep sleep state, memory clocks will be active (lowest power state would be DDR in self refresh mode and the system powered down).

I think that is good info on the Europe cell phone, I think the discussion has been take-off/landing so that follows the same type of rules.

I have heard in the past, that in the US the restriction on in air cell usage was to restrict the overload to the towers, where a single phone would be seen by way too many cells. I think that is outdated with current tech though, so I imagine the rule for in flight usage is now down to the momentum to change the rule more than anything.

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Old 04-27-2010, 11:00 PM   #210
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Pricew - And how precisely are they going to detect the reader? Sure, it might be running at 1Mhz, you'll need to jam a hand-held scanner right into the bag to detect it though. And flight attendants don't carry those (since none are certified for use on aircraft, ha!)

And no, I am certainly not "asking" the "rulemakers" that. I've repeatedly stated in this thread I want more stringent testing of both devices and aircraft shielding!
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