Why is indie music so respected compared to indie publishing?

[GA Russell]

In the past three years I have been given a number of self-published jazz (mostly vocals) records. Most have been quite good, but perhaps there has been some filtering by the press agent who has sent me the CDs.

I think that these self-published music albums are respected because the consumers think that they are as good as those issued by the major labels. This may in part reflect a disappointment in the products of the major labels.

I don't think that we see among readers a similar disappointment in the products of book publishers. When the time comes that book publishers are seen to have a blind eye toward quality, I bet the self-published authors will receive acclaim.

Perhaps that day is already here regarding non-fiction. I am under the impression that there have been self-published books on commerce that have been financially successful for the authors (such as Robert Ringer's books). In the case of non-fiction, the consumer may want to learn (for example, how to make money), and not care if the writing receives anyone's stamp of approval.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by GA Russell

I don't think that we see among readers a similar disappointment in the products of book publishers. When the time comes that book publishers are seen to have a blind eye toward quality, I bet the self-published authors will receive acclaim.

Interestingly, there is significantly lesser quality in many e-books sold by major publishers (compared to their print counterparts). Somehow, though, that fact does not seem to reflect negatively on the publishers as much as the same lesser quality would reflect badly on independent authors. That's why I maintain the difference is in the PR efforts of Big Pub, inflating themselves whilst denigrating those outside of their inner circles.

[nomesque]

I've been interested to realise that the big players in ebook reader production seem to have all decided the same thing - relying on traditional publishers for ebook content won't be good enough. Amazon, B&N, Sony... they're all taking up self-published ebooks in large quantities.

While this doesn't mean much without sales figures to look at, it's certainly an intriguing shift in retail attitudes, don't you think?

[tompe]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Interestingly, there is significantly lesser quality in many e-books sold by major publishers (compared to their print counterparts). Somehow, though, that fact does not seem to reflect negatively on the publishers as much as the same lesser quality would reflect badly on independent authors. That's why I maintain the difference is in the PR efforts of Big Pub, inflating themselves whilst denigrating those outside of their inner circles.

I thought it was the quality of the story/work that was referred to. If the ebook is badly put together you buy the paper book and will not be disappointed by the author's work.

[zacheryjensen]

Originally Posted by nomesque

I've been interested to realise that the big players in ebook reader production seem to have all decided the same thing - relying on traditional publishers for ebook content won't be good enough. Amazon, B&N, Sony... they're all taking up self-published ebooks in large quantities.

While this doesn't mean much without sales figures to look at, it's certainly an intriguing shift in retail attitudes, don't you think?

I'm quite positive the real reason is to pad their numbers. The availability of products in eBook stores has been a major negative point for eBooks for a long time. Amazon touts 300,000 books or whatever, and you'll see a contest going back and forth, at least to investors at financial results meetings, to show who has the most choices available.

Even if that is the reason for picking up more on independent writers, I'm all for it. Both goals benefit everyone in my opinion. Such retail-driven promotion of content really helps independent artists, especially when you get into the whole "If you like this you'll like this also" recommendations systems that are automatically pulling up indie artists that someone has never heard of for music. I'd like that for books too.

[nomesque]

Originally Posted by zacheryjensen

I'm quite positive the real reason is to pad their numbers. The availability of products in eBook stores has been a major negative point for eBooks for a long time. Amazon touts 300,000 books or whatever, and you'll see a contest going back and forth, at least to investors at financial results meetings, to show who has the most choices available

*nod* Yup, I think that's a big part of it. Although it's funny, really - I can't see that ever having happened in (modern) paper publishing. Not enough pbooks to fill a store???

So it seems to me that the lack of ebook versions of pbooks probably has caused a lot of interest in self-published works, from the retailers AND the consumers, simply because the self-publishers happened to be there, with some quality writing, with the correct format, and amenable to sensible distribution agreements.

[Gideon]

Well, the thing is 'indie' as it applies to music means both without labels and with indie labels.

And I'd echo what another said... I'd not buy someone's cd without a label behind them without hearing them first, and more to the point, I can't think of the last time I heard an indie band that was good that hasn't managed to be picked up by SOMEONE.

Maybe we need a new type of indie publishing houses to make indie writers more respectable. Heck if I know.. I've never across an indie writer that I've ever cared for (that being said, I've not tried a TON... but I'm sufficiently gun-shy at this point!)

Well.. there was this guy who was writing a story online in chapters like.. 10 years ago. I enjoyed that. I don't know if I would now.

[nomesque]

Originally Posted by Gideon

Maybe we need a new type of indie publishing houses to make indie writers more respectable. Heck if I know.. I've never across an indie writer that I've ever cared for (that being said, I've not tried a TON... but I'm sufficiently gun-shy at this point!)

These are turning up all over the place. I'm thinking of starting one myself, to be honest - I have the editing and writing experience to (imo) earn the commission I'd be charging. But honestly - indie publishers, at this point in time, are about as reliable as indie writers. There are some great, some good, some absolute shockers. After all, if your sole purpose as a publisher is to provide a writer with a "I've been picked up by a publisher!" and get paid a percentage of any profits... well, hell, any doofus can do that!

(this isn't a dig at indie publishers OR writers, btw - just making the point that there's not much differentiation yet, if ever)

[Baumi]

As others pointed out before: Indie music really is a different beast from the current scene of "indie publishing" as far as print publishing goes.

Indie music labels are more like small publishers (e.g. Baen) - they cater to a niche market, but the pay their artists money for the right to distribute their music. Indie labels make money from the consumer who buys their CDs, so they try to bring out as good a product as possible.

"Indie publishing", however, is a term that has been adopted by the vanity presses to seem more respectable. Vanity presses, however, don't care about sales: They make their money from the writer who has to pay for all the costs involved plus a fee for the management on top. So they don't care about the quality of work, they care about quantity. It doesn't matter if the books don't sell, the writer already paid for everything. In that respect, they're not a publishing house, they're an expensive alternative to a xerox shop; just in the same way a studio that records and copies whatever you croak into their microphones as long as you pay for it, cannot be considered a record label.

And just like a sound engineer wouldn't refuse anyone's money because the can't sing, a vanity press will not turn you away because you can't write. The result: Lots of crappy books.

Maybe ebooks will change that, maybe they won't: Producing an ebook is much cheaper than a pbook, so it might open the floodgates of crap even wider, making it hard for a good writer to be noticed without the marketing muscle of a publisher.

[ficbot]

Steve, to answer your question, I don't think I meant either/or necessarily (i.e. with 'label' or without). The internet kind of blurs the lines a little. My cousin for example has a band, plays gigs and has made a CD but he has no label. Yet with Myspace, Facebook etc. he can seem much more prominent than he might seem and attract serious attention (for example he just got written up on the MuchMusic website). A label-less musician with a knack for self-promotion can attract a lot of attention on the internet music scene.

Now, you might argue that there has been quality control even for something like his band because someone has paid him for gigs. But I get you I could find a few people to read my stuff if I wanted to, and write blurbs for me, and you'd never know the difference. I could leverage my connection at Teleread, or my past as a journalist (where people *did* pay me for my writing) and develop an on-line presence. The kid who wrote Eragon sold the books out of his parents car for a couple years before he picked up the big contract. It can be done, but you need to have a knack for self-promotion to get the same legitimacy that you'd get from having a publishing contract. So is it that 'indie writers' have not yet developed this knack, or is it that they just aren't plain good enough for the knack to matter even if they did have it? I suppose that, as with any equation, you'll find some who fall on either side

[gigercounter]

Most stoners would rather "listen in, tune in and tune out".
Books on the other hand tend to be geared towards the more intelligent.

[astra]

So if someone says: I like indies, basically you have no clue what they like? Because independent might be trance, dance or jazz?

[zacheryjensen]

Originally Posted by gigercounter

Most stoners would rather "listen in, tune in and tune out".
Books on the other hand tend to be geared towards the more intelligent.

Pfft, one of my wife's book clubs stands as an excellent contrary example to that commonly held belief.

It hardly takes much intelligence to read through a book then whine about how bad it was since you didn't understand it anyway. I think there's this whole category of readers that read, without really understanding what they are reading, for the sole purpose of appearing smarter than they actually are.

[zacheryjensen]

Originally Posted by astra

So if someone says: I like indies, basically you have no clue what they like? Because independent might be trance, dance or jazz?

That's something that depends entirely on the person saying it. I know people who like indie stuff just because it's independently produced and they will look past genres and quality to get at it. That's more common with movies in my experience but with music too. That said, I have also met people who assume all indie music is punk rock or at least similar. Loud, dirty, and reeking of immaturity.

In reality as you shift genres, the meaning and impact of being independent drastically changes (in music anyway.) In Jazz, it's about whether you perform and where you've done so and who you've done so with. Within techno it's about gigs and local notoriety. Hardly any DJ's are not independent.

With rock it's usually an indication that you're on a very small label and they don't restrict your art at all....

so yeah, no clear answer for you

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by zacheryjensen

That said, I have also met people who assume all indie music is punk rock or at least similar. Loud, dirty, and reeking of immaturity.

Your point being? Just kidding.

I agree the perception is there. The perception is also there related to indie authors, especially as related to certain genres (like sci-fi and fanfic).

But certain forms of music are prized specifically because they are rough, primitive and unrefined, more personal and emotionally raw. Very little literature is sought out or prized for those qualities, other than some forms of poetry (which is the closer analogue to music than extended novels).

This last point continues to give me the impression that we're comparing apples to oranges, here. Should we be comparing music more accurately to poetry? Should extended novels be more accurately compared to a one-man concerto instead of a 3-minute band song?