MobileRead For the 2016 categories, as a 1st step, can we....

[sun surfer]

Originally Posted by Synamon

...I don't think it matters how many books get nominated, it matters that no one is reading or participating in discussions about the one book that is chosen by vote. I'd be interested in knowing why this is...

I don't know if it would help get more posts or not, but we could try starting the discussion threads just after the winners are chosen and see how that works. I know that would take away from giving everyone time to read the book before we start discussing it, but it might get a few more posts since it'd be open longer. If Tom or everyone doesn't want to though I can definitely understand that.

[JSWolf]

We have the literary book club. That one can do the older less modern books. This one should be doing more modern books.

[sun surfer]

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

What I'm seeing it's that so far several people are of the opinion that we should all either nominate our own lists for 2015 or else support someone else's list. It seems like a plan to me. Does anyone object to doing it that way?

So you're saying that everyone who wants to can nominate their own list, and then we'll have a vote on them with one winner? If so, I really like that idea, Tom. Simple enough and gives everyone a chance to have their ideas heard.

I would say though, if we do it, maybe have a rule that lists must have a certain number of categories that are different from any specific previous yearly list that we used. Otherwise, I could see someone nominating the exact same categories and having them win again. Personally, I wouldn't mind that, but I know you and some others want some new categories, and so I know how annoying that might be for some if that happened.

[Dazrin]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

We have the literary book club. That one can do the older less modern books. This one should be doing more modern books.

That certainly isn't the point of the literary club and there are plenty of literary books that are modern as well.

There are also many older books that are not "literary" that the main club could discuss. H.G. Wells, Sherlock Holmes, H. Rider Haggard's Quatermain books, the Oz books are all books that don't necessarily fit into the literary club but would fit in here just fine in several genre categories but aren't modern.

[HomeInMyShoes]

I'm okay with either of the two options. The 30 categories vote would need a method for figuring out what to do in the (un)likely event of a tie near the bottom.

I also like the everyone who wants to nominate their own list of categories with what the categories mean. Give people a month to draw up their recommendations and then a month to vote.

We have lots of time to come up with next year's categories. I would error on the side of letting people think about it and seeing how a few more of the current categories months fare in participation before jumping down a plan.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Dazrin

That certainly isn't the point of the literary club and there are plenty of literary books that are modern as well.

You wouldn't know it by the nominations.

There are also many older books that are not "literary" that the main club could discuss. H.G. Wells, Sherlock Holmes, H. Rider Haggard's Quatermain books, the Oz books are all books that don't necessarily fit into the literary club but would fit in here just fine in several genre categories but aren't modern.

Is literary being called literary for the story or for the writing because I'e read some books where the story is not literary, but the writing is. For example, Perdido Street Station is literary for the writing, but not the story.

[Dazrin]

We are getting off topic, but...

Originally Posted by JSWolf

You wouldn't know it by the nominations.

I don't think you have an accurate assessment of the literary club. From the last couple open nomination periods only 2 of the 5 poetry nominations were written before 1990 and only 1 of the 6 nominations from the Southeast Asia selections were before 1980. From the rotating nominations they are very dependent on what theme the nominator chooses. Billi nominated 8 older works, but HomeInMyShoes nominated only 2 out of 17 that were written before 1980. Their recent numbers don't support your theory.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Is literary being called literary for the story or for the writing because I'e read some books where the story is not literary, but the writing is. For example, Perdido Street Station is literary for the writing, but not the story.

Here is the definition that they are using for the literary club:

Originally Posted by sun surfer

What is literature for the purposes of this club? A superior work of lasting merit that enriches the mind. Often it is important, challenging, critically acclaimed. It may be from ancient times to today; it may be from anywhere in the world; it may be obscure or famous, short or long; it may be a story, a novel, a play, a poem, an essay or another written form.

I haven't read Perdido Street Station (yet) but, from what I have heard about Murakami, I could certainly see it or something like it being nominated for the literary club. I think a book like The Golem and the Jinni would fit as well.

Back on topic...I think for the main book club the problem has been trying to read books that are difficult to read or depressing rather than fun books to read. I wasn't at all interested in reading Dubliners or The Grapes of Wrath in this club because they are just not fun books to read. Excellent writing and stories (so "they" say), but just not at all fun.

[HomeInMyShoes]

I've always been a bit of an outlier in both clubs. I have yet to nominate a work to be read.

Canada's history is relatively recent so that made the selection necessarily a bit more modern. Given the relative availability of works pre a certain period for anyone outside of a Canadian library also pushed me to be a bit more modern. That said I don't think it would have altered my selections much. Maybe one or two works.

[treadlightly]

Originally Posted by Dazrin

Back on topic...I think for the main book club the problem has been trying to read books that are difficult to read or depressing rather than fun books to read. I wasn't at all interested in reading Dubliners or The Grapes of Wrath in this club because they are just not fun books to read. Excellent writing and stories (so "they" say), but just not at all fun.

I have no problem with reading books that are fun, but we should probably state that somewhere if it is our goal. For instance some of the books nominated this month could be labelled "tear-jerkers" so not what I would consider fun. I would have assumed the goal is to read books that are "good" so maybe we should start with a definition of the Book Club's intention.

[HomeInMyShoes]

I joked about us needing a mission statement earlier. I didn't think it would actually happen.

The best books affect me in some way. That can be sorrow, joy, insights into life, relatable experiences or even just pure escapism. The hardest part about books is that the reader is as much a part of the quality of the book as the writer. The book is dead until the reader with their experiences and their context for reading it picks it up. I know that some books that I read and didn't like that much were just read at the wrong time. I also know that some books that I loved were loved because they were what I needed at the time and not so much that their quality was any better than the one I didn't like. Arguing aesthetics never works. Everyone is equally right and wrong. What we want is people reading and discussing books.

We have great discussions on getting books nominated, but less so on the actual books themselves. Part of that might be missing the mark with what people want to read, but we'll have that issue no matter what the categories are. As long as people are having fun and finding things to read I believe the club is successful. I guess that's why I put more credence in nomination and voting numbers than in book discussion. I certainly understand the importance of discussion for some. It sucks to read a book and have no one to discuss it with, even if all we have to say is that was tiresome or that made me laugh so hard.

[sun surfer]

Originally Posted by Dazrin

Having people post lists is ok, but I am still for using sun surfer's suggestion from last year which is a poll with up to 30 different categories to vote on (below). We would take the top 11 categories, plus Runners-Up in January, and a volunteer (or 2-3 working together) would decide the order.

More details from that suggestion in the spoiler:

Spoiler:

If there is a tie that would effect the final list (e.g., the 12th and 13th most popular items are tied) we will have a single choice run-off vote. If we still have tie, the winner will be chosen by either WT Sharpe or another volunteer.

30 choices is the maximum allowed by the software I believe, so that is where the limit came from.

The vote could be a fairly long one (1 month plus) at this time of year in order to allow as many people as possible to see it and participate.

If we want to reduce the number of literary titles we should consider replacing or just removing some of these categories (+).

Here is the slightly updated list of categories:

1. Action/Adventure**
2. Award Winners +
3. Banned/Challenged Books +
4. Classics
5. Contemporary
6. Fantasy*
7. Fiction***
8. First in a Series
9. Foreign (Originally Non-English) +
10. Free-For-All
11. Historical Fiction
12. History (Non-Fiction)
13. Horror
14. Humor
15. Indie
16. Mystery/Crime*
17. Non-Fiction
18. Not Classic or Contemporary
19. Patricia Clark Memorial Library
20. Planes, Trains and Automobiles (and Boats)
21. Philosophy
22. Pulp Adventure
23. Romance
24. Science (Non-Fiction)
25. Science-Fiction*
26. Short Stories
27. Thriller/Suspense*
28. Travel**
29. Westerns
30. Young Adult

+ These categories tend towards more "literary" choices and might be removed/replaced if we want to avoid that.
* I removed the combined "Science-Fiction/Fantasy" and "Mystery/Thriller" categories in favor of the separate categories. We could add them back if wanted.
**I split up "Adventure/Travel" into "Action/Adventure" and "Travel" to more accurately describe the fiction and non-fiction flavors of this category.
***Added "Fiction" as a semi-Free-for-All month.

Thanks Dazrin (and thanks for re-posting my post here from the other thread - when I was writing it the discussion was still in that thread and I didn't realise it had moved over here).

Actually, my views have changed a little since I made that category suggestion. I do really like Tom's suggestion and choosing that way we'd end up with a cohesive list for the year. While I like the categories we have now, some don't make sense taken as a whole. For instance, we have Science Fiction but no Fantasy. If we use my idea from the last category vote that you're proposing, something similar could happen. However, if more people and Tom prefer to do it the way you're suggesting then I'm on board (after all, I did come up with the idea so I should like it ).

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Dazrin

I haven't read Perdido Street Station (yet) but, from what I have heard about Murakami, I could certainly see it or something like it being nominated for the literary club. I think a book like The Golem and the Jinni would fit as well.

Actually, Perdido Street Station is written by China Miéville. It is rather well written.

Back on topic...I think for the main book club the problem has been trying to read books that are difficult to read or depressing rather than fun books to read. I wasn't at all interested in reading Dubliners or The Grapes of Wrath in this club because they are just not fun books to read. Excellent writing and stories (so "they" say), but just not at all fun.

I agree with this assessment. I would like more engaging stories that are more upbeat or written in a way that's an easy read or a fun read. I would like books nominated that would appeal to a larger audience. Books like he Grapes of Wrath or Dubliners just don't work (IMHO).

[sun surfer]

Originally Posted by HomeInMyShoes

I've always been a bit of an outlier in both clubs. I have yet to nominate a work to be read. ...

Well, that's about to change for you in less than 24 hours.

[HomeInMyShoes]

^I figured that was my only in.

[Dazrin]

Originally Posted by HomeInMyShoes

We have great discussions on getting books nominated, but less so on the actual books themselves. Part of that might be missing the mark with what people want to read, but we'll have that issue no matter what the categories are. As long as people are having fun and finding things to read I believe the club is successful. I guess that's why I put more credence in nomination and voting numbers than in book discussion. I certainly understand the importance of discussion for some. It sucks to read a book and have no one to discuss it with, even if all we have to say is that was tiresome or that made me laugh so hard.

Ain't that the truth! We have better discussions just on the categories than we do on most actual books. But then again, I'm having fun.

Originally Posted by sun surfer

Actually, my views have changed a little since I made that category suggestion. I do really like Tom's suggestion and choosing that way we'd end up with a cohesive list for the year. While I like the categories we have now, some don't make sense taken as a whole. For instance, we have Science Fiction but no Fantasy. If we use my idea from the last category vote that you're proposing, something similar could happen. However, if more people and Tom prefer to do it the way you're suggesting then I'm on board (after all, I did come up with the idea so I should like it ).

I have changed a bit since I posted that too, mostly from reading the 2009 discussion on choosing categories for 2010 and having a sense of deja vu. They seemed to be having some of the same issues we are having now. I wasn't involved then (hadn't even heard of MR then), but it is eery how similar some of the complaints were. As I said in #44 above, the process then was similar to what has been going on here but with no vote at the end; pilotbob posted his proposed list after seeing a bunch of others, got some comments back, updated it a couple times and then said "This is it." I wonder if voting on this is actually hurting us rather than helping us. There are times when the democratic process just causes more hassle than necessary.

At this point though, I will be satisfied with however we end up doing this. It is time for some churning of the categories in one way or another and I am enjoying the discussion regardless.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Actually, [i]Perdido Street Station[i] is written by China Miéville. It is rather well written.

Oops. I knew that sounded wrong, but I think the point stands. I do intend to try both Miéville and Murakami here in the future though and from what I have heard they could both go into the literary or main clubs.