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[stonetools]

Originally Posted by BuddyBoy

Actually, you've pointed out what me is always the big drawback when dealing with Apple - THEY decide what the average user wants and they code and develop ONLY to that minimalist goal.

If you're not an average user, or you are but they have a different concept of what their average users wants, your hooped. Then the whole thing becomes self-fulfilling because the system now attracts the people Apple thought were their average users, even if they weren't.

I use Apple devices, I have a MacMini for Xcode Development and a corral of iOs devices, but I'm not blind to their flaws. No one will ever accuse Steve Jobs of playing well with others.

There is no question but that Apple marches to its definition of what the average user wants. Turns out, though, that they are usually right .

The geek way is to be focused on specs, features and options-what can this device DO, no matter how inconvenient it is. Pretty much classic examples of geek design are the Linux Operating system and Google TV-lots of features and options, but no non geek wants to use them.
The Apple way is focused on user experience -what's simple, what's elegant, what's easiest for the average user. That frustrates geeks who want lot if options and who aren't confused by complexity, but the Apple way sure seems popular right now.

[BuddyBoy]

Originally Posted by stonetools

There is no question but that Apple marches to its definition of what the average user wants. Turns out, though, that they are usually right .

The geek way is to be focused on specs, features and options-what can this device DO, no matter how inconvenient it is. Pretty much classic examples of geek design are the Linux Operating system and Google TV-lots of features and options, but no non geek wants to use them.
The Apple way is focused on user experience -what's simple, what's elegant, what's easiest for the average user. That frustrates geeks who want lot if options and who aren't confused by complexity, but the Apple way sure seems popular right now.

I don't disagree that the Apple style does seem to be popular, and that there are plenty of folks who prefer the appliance approach to their computing, but, seriously, it does come at a cost. The first two versions of the iPhone didn't support voice dialing - a feature fairly standard in the industry at the time. I don't believe iOs YET supports the full Bluetooth headphone protocol - last time I paired my headset I couldn't advance or rewind tracks, despite it being part of the standard and the buttons to do so being on my headphones.

I'm not sure if there are any statistics to support a theory I have, but when you look at the sales of Apple products, and the significant (in a statistical sense) amount of user griping just on Apples own support forums, you begin to see that they may have the largest group of unsatisfied adopters. It's a weird metric because many of these folks like some aspect of the product, and most don't generally dislike it enough to abandon it, but just the same, they're dissatisfied with the way Apple treats them, and addresses their concerns.

Granted, aspects of that happen with many firms too, but what seems to make Apple unique is the cadre of die-hard users who turn up when Apple pees on us, and loudly proclaim, with great joy, that it's raining apple juice.

[stonetools]

Hey, I agree that Apple sometimes misses the mark when it comes to excluding features that a device really should have. I find it REALLY annoying that their mp3 players don't come with FM radios, for example. For the life of me, I can't understand why they would not have this extremely user friendly feature.
However, on the whole, I do think that I prefer their approach to "let's throw in every feature we can, just because we can, and let the end user figure out how to use it" approach. I guess I'm a lot closer to the average user, than to the geek.

[Graham]

Originally Posted by stonetools

Hey, I agree that Apple sometimes misses the mark when it comes to excluding features that a device really should have. I find it REALLY annoying that their mp3 players don't come with FM radios, for example. For the life of me, I can't understand why they would not have this extremely user friendly feature.
However, on the whole, I do think that I prefer their approach to "let's throw in every feature we can, just because we can, and let the end user figure out how to use it" approach. I guess I'm a lot closer to the average user, than to the geek.

But Apple's mp3 players are a classic case in point. Why on earth would the average user prefer these products that had poorer battery life, smaller storage capacity and poorer sound quality than well-known and often cheaper competing brands?

Regardless of the extra features, mp3 players from people like Creative and iRiver were just as easy to use, and there were plenty of stylish options so it wasn't pure style.

Apple make elegant products, but I do think that it's more their brilliant marketing that sweeps up the average user, not that the other products are only fit for geeks.

Graham

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by stonetools

Pretty much classic examples of geek design are the Linux Operating system and Google TV-lots of features and options, but no non geek wants to use them.

It's amazing how you've nailed Linus Torvalds' motivations with so few words; "I wanted to make something for the geeks."

The problem with throwing the "geek" and "average user" designations around willy-nilly is that they are both moving targets. The "average" iOS user today would have been a geek in the previous decade. When it comes to Apple and iPhones, I consider all owners to be geeks. Why else would they have a smartphone that can play Angry Birds?

The divide between Linux users and "average" computer users today has very little to do with their geekitude (considering today's Linux flavors)... but it does have everything to do with paradigm and dogma. How do I know? Set three children down in front of three computers (Windows, Mac & Linux). They will all three soon be equally proficient at using the graphical interface each O.S. offers to do all of the things that interest them. And they will each be leery of the other two O.S.'s for the rest of their lives.

[stonetools]

Originally Posted by Graham

But Apple's mp3 players are a classic case in point. Why on earth would the average user prefer these products that had poorer battery life, smaller storage capacity and poorer sound quality than well-known and often cheaper competing brands?

Regardless of the extra features, mp3 players from people like Creative and iRiver were just as easy to use, and there were plenty of stylish options so it wasn't pure style.

Apple make elegant products, but I do think that it's more their brilliant marketing that sweeps up the average user, not that the other products are only fit for geeks.

Graham

The reason why the current generation of competing mp3 players are just as easy to use as Ipods is because they evolved to become more like Ipods.
They most certainly did not start out that way.

In the same way,smartphones pre-Iphone look completely different from they look now.
Apple's marketing is brilliant, but it is so because it grows out of its design philosophy, which is user experience first, specs second (in fact, specs nowhere in its commercials).

[stonetools]

Down memory lane, here is Steve Jobs introducing the Ipod:

http://www.businessinsider.com/ipod-...-your-pocket-1

Yeah, he's a huckster, but he still is a business genius.

[stonetools]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

It's amazing how you've nailed Linus Torvalds' motivations with so few words; "I wanted to make something for the geeks."

The problem with throwing the "geek" and "average user" designations around willy-nilly is that they are both moving targets. The "average" iOS user today would have been a geek in the previous decade. When it comes to Apple and iPhones, I consider all owners to be geeks. Why else would they have a smartphone that can play Angry Birds?

The divide between Linux users and "average" computer users today has very little to do with their geekitude (considering today's Linux flavors)... but it does have everything to do with paradigm and dogma. How do I know? Set three children down in front of three computers (Windows, Mac & Linux). They will all three soon be equally proficient at using the graphical interface each O.S. offers to do all of the things that interest them. And they will each be leery of the other two O.S.'s for the rest of their lives.

We are all geeks now. I think even now, though, kids will find Macs easier to learn than the Linux. Certainly, adults still do.

[Graham]

Originally Posted by stonetools

The reason why the current generation of competing mp3 players are just as easy to use as Ipods is because they evolved to become more like Ipods.
They most certainly did not start out that way.

I was actually referring to designs from some years ago, rather than the current crop.

On three occasions between 2005 and 2008 I was comparing extant models with the current iPod with a view to purchase, and each time concluded from industry reviews and comparisons with friends' iPods that the competing devices were as easy to use and better on those core features.

Seriously, do you really believe that it was so hard to use earlier Creative Zen devices that they were 'only for geeks'?

I've owned two (Zen Micro and Zen Xi-Fi), and they were simplicity itself. I also picked out the iRiver Clix for my wife, which she still uses and loves. She is so far from being a geek that she's coming back the other way.

Whether or not they copied useability elements from the iPod doesn't change the point I was making, which was that it's mostly the marketing that leads average users to buy iPods, given that the core functionality of battery, storage capacity and sound quality has often been better on the competing devices.

Anyway this has drifted way off topic. Feel free to respond, of course, but I'll move on at this point.

Graham

[DiapDealer]

I think even now, though, kids will find Macs easier to learn than the Linux. Certainly, adults still do.

You only think that because you didn't start with Linux. You would need to change in order to use it. That's always harder. Linux is only as complicated as you want to make it. There's plenty of flavors that offer point and click nirvana (in both installation and everyday use). It's got nothing to do with one interface being easier to use than the other.

But enough about Linux. The idea that Apple is now the World's Largest Company because they offer the most intuitive interface to non-technical users is silly. Three words: marketing, Joneses, and herd.

Not that I think any of those are inherently evil, I'm just saying their success is not all about having the best (easiest) interface for average Joe Technophile... it's not even the main reason.

[stonetools]

@Graham

Cool. Let's agree to disagree

[stonetools]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

You only think that because you didn't start with Linux. You would need to change in order to use it. That's always harder. Linux is only as complicated as you want to make it. There's plenty of flavors that offer point and click nirvana (in both installation and everyday use). It's got nothing to do with one interface being easier to use than the other.

But enough about Linux. The idea that Apple is now the World's Largest Company because they offer the most intuitive interface to non-technical users is silly. Three words: marketing, Joneses, and herd.

Not that I think any of those are inherently evil, I'm just saying their success is not all about having the best (easiest) interface for average Joe Technophile... it's not even the main reason.

Apple became the WLC because it hit a series of monster home runs in the consumer electronics field over the last decade- the Ipod, Itunes, Iphone, App Store, Ipad. In every case, they succeeded not because they brought the first product to market, but because they brought to market the first product that was easiest and most intuitive to use. I don't say that-consumers say that- hundreds of millions of them over the years. Is it possible that they are right and you are wrong about this? Just sayin'.

[DiapDealer]

Is it possible that they are right and you are wrong about this? Just sayin'.

Sure it's possible. And as long as you can admit to the very same possibility, we can each go our own happy way.

BTW... why would you assume that hundreds of millions of units sold automatically equates to best/easiest/most intuitive interface? By that logic, Windows would be the most intuitive/easiest O.S. available... I'm pretty sure neither of us thinks that that is in any way true.

[elcreative]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Three words: marketing, Joneses, and herd.

You were doing so well with reasoned arguments until this then straightforward insults again (not excused by a wink) to people who disagree with your choices... and you talk about "herd mentality"

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by elcreative

You were doing so well with reasoned arguments until this then straightforward insults again (not excused by a wink) to people who disagree with your choices... and you talk about "herd mentality"

I'm sorry you interpreted my comments as insulting. They certainly weren't intended that way. I have no problems with Apple, iPhones or their users, so I'm not interested in insulting them. But anyone who thinks that "keeping up with the Joneses" and "herd mentality" hasn't played any part in the iPhone's success (or the large scale success of any electronic gadget for that matter) is ignoring a large part of the equation. Plain and simple.