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Old 05-13-2008, 07:42 PM   #76
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There are lots of things that are fraud but the term Identify Theft is a particular kind of fraud. Fraud is theft by deception according to the law. If some one stole your identity what would you say happened to you? The identity hasn't really been stolen in the same sense that works you depend on for lively hood haven't been stolen. Maybe the fact that they emptied your bank account and destroyed your credit is merely a matter of infringing a bit on your copy right. Is that the way you would like to view it. Selling a work that someone else wrote is also fraud in that you didn't have permission but I think the idea of theft makes the severity of the crime more obvious.
I do not believe the "stole your identity" is well defined. I think the term is a fuzzy term that should not be used if you want to talk careful about things. Why not say "use your identity"? Some use of my identity is not illegal and I do not mind them. If you empty a bank account then it is the emptying of the bank account that is the problem.

I still think that people call copyright infringement for theft either because they do not know better or because they are using dishonest rhetorical language.
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Old 05-13-2008, 08:06 PM   #77
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There are lots of things that are fraud but the term Identify Theft is a particular kind of fraud. Fraud is theft by deception according to the law. If some one stole your identity what would you say happened to you? The identity hasn't really been stolen in the same sense that works you depend on for lively hood haven't been stolen. Maybe the fact that they emptied your bank account and destroyed your credit is merely a matter of infringing a bit on your copy right. Is that the way you would like to view it. Selling a work that someone else wrote is also fraud in that you didn't have permission but I think the idea of theft makes the severity of the crime more obvious.

Dale
No. Fraud is fraud; it is not theft. You can commit fraud without stealing anything.

The problem with the term "identity theft" is that it is more metaphysical than practical. My identity cannot be stolen; I will always be me. Someone might commit fraud in claiming to be me, but since I am still me nothing has been stolen.
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Old 05-13-2008, 08:26 PM   #78
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No. Fraud is fraud; it is not theft. You can commit fraud without stealing anything.

The problem with the term "identity theft" is that it is more metaphysical than practical. My identity cannot be stolen; I will always be me. Someone might commit fraud in claiming to be me, but since I am still me nothing has been stolen.
"Many hoaxes are fraudulent, although those not made for personal gain are not technically frauds. Defrauding people of money is presumably the most common type of fraud." - quote from wikipedia. If you defraud someone it is stealing in my book.

It is true that you still have you identity which is why it is like the copyright case. But legally it is called identity theft. Actually they don't commit fraud by claiming to be you. They commit a hoax. They commit fraud on a bank by using your name to extract money but then they didn't commit fraud against you since they did actually commit the hoax against you personally. However, it is a life ruining experience but no fraud was committed against you personally so I guess it shouldn't be a crime (in your view) since we haven't got a good name for it.

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Old 05-13-2008, 08:38 PM   #79
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"Many hoaxes are fraudulent, although those not made for personal gain are not technically frauds. Defrauding people of money is presumably the most common type of fraud." - quote from wikipedia. If you defraud someone it is stealing in my book.

It is true that you still have you identity which is why it is like the copyright case. But legally it is called identity theft. Actually they don't commit fraud by claiming to be you. They commit a hoax. They commit fraud on a bank by using your name to extract money but then they didn't commit fraud against you since they did actually commit the hoax against you personally. However, it is a life ruining experience but no fraud was committed against you personally so I guess it shouldn't be a crime (in your view) since we haven't got a good name for it.

Dale
I never said fraud wasn't a crime; I merely said it wasn't theft.

Impersonating me to drain my bank account is unlikely. It is more likely that someone would commit forgery by falsifying my signature. This isn't really identity theft, even by your definition.

It is possible that this is stealing, but it does not concern me. It is a matter between the bank and the forger. Since I didn't withdraw this money, I will get my money returned.
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Old 05-13-2008, 08:44 PM   #80
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Somehow, I had a feeling this is where this thread would be going...
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Old 05-13-2008, 08:56 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Nate the great View Post
I never said fraud wasn't a crime; I merely said it wasn't theft.

Impersonating me to drain my bank account is unlikely. It is more likely that someone would commit forgery by falsifying my signature. This isn't really identity theft, even by your definition.

It is possible that this is stealing, but it does not concern me. It is a matter between the bank and the forger. Since I didn't withdraw this money, I will get my money returned.
First you have to prove you didn't take the money. It is not as easy as you think. My wife had a credit card stolen and it was used to rent a car that was never returned. It took us more than a year of fighting with the car rental company to get it straightened out. Your credit can get frozen and there are lots of impacts beyond, oh its not my problem.

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Old 05-13-2008, 09:30 PM   #82
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First you have to prove you didn't take the money. It is not as easy as you think. My wife had a credit card stolen and it was used to rent a car that was never returned. It took us more than a year of fighting with the car rental company to get it straightened out. Your credit can get frozen and there are lots of impacts beyond, oh its not my problem.

Dale
So the misbehavior of the car company is identity theft? If not, then it isn't relevant to this discussion.

The repercussions of an act of "identity theft" having been committed against you is not relevant to a discussion on whether "identity theft" is the correct word for the crime.
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Old 05-14-2008, 10:08 AM   #83
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So the misbehavior of the car company is identity theft? If not, then it isn't relevant to this discussion.

The repercussions of an act of "identity theft" having been committed against you is not relevant to a discussion on whether "identity theft" is the correct word for the crime.
I guess it shows how difficult some of the crimes can be to identify correctly. The 'identity theft' words are the ones used by everyone (except you I guess) to label the crime that happened. (Do a google search on identity theft to realize that even the encyclopedia Britannica and most everybody else uses these words.) I am glad to see that you see a crime has been committed. I am not the one who made up these words but I do think they encapsulate the nature of the crime.

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Old 05-14-2008, 10:25 AM   #84
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Somehow, I had a feeling this is where this thread would be going...
Yes, me too. So I'd decided It'd be pointless to add anything.

.
.
.

And then, you came up with this:

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It's been discussed a few times around these parts.

For the record, simply depriving someone of their legal property without permission, whether you gain from that act or not, constitutes theft. Gain is largely irrelevant. (In such case, the question becomes: Is an e-book considered a copyright holder's legal property?)

The general consensus among MR members (if I may be so bold) is that the inherent and practical differences between physical property and electronic documents still need to be addressed by the world at large, and an agreement reached, as to what should be bound under copyright infringement and/or theft, or if new rules need to be applied, to enact an acceptable global stance on the matter.

IOW, it hasn't really been decided.
In the last few months, I've seen none of the threads about this specific issue end up on such reach a consensus, except on the fact that saying "theft" when one is talking of "copyright infrigement" was an abuse of language that should be banished. I should know, I closely followed everyone of them, and participated in most.
As a matter of fact, it appears that even the forum's most in favor of "hard copyright" rules (you, HarryT and so on) have somewhat agreed to the point, since I've noticed most of you guys have stopped confusing the terms in your posts.

I wonder if we shouldn't open a thread on this topic, not to discuss minute details and contradict each other, but for interested members to develop their overall views on the subject and their reasons to have them (moral, philosophical, pragmatic and so on).
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Old 05-14-2008, 04:30 PM   #85
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In the last few months, I've seen none of the threads about this specific issue end up on such reach a consensus, except on the fact that saying "theft" when one is talking of "copyright infrigement" was an abuse of language that should be banished. I should know, I closely followed everyone of them, and participated in most.
As a matter of fact, it appears that even the forum's most in favor of "hard copyright" rules (you, HarryT and so on) have somewhat agreed to the point, since I've noticed most of you guys have stopped confusing the terms in your posts.

I wonder if we shouldn't open a thread on this topic, not to discuss minute details and contradict each other, but for interested members to develop their overall views on the subject and their reasons to have them (moral, philosophical, pragmatic and so on).
There is certainly agreement on this site that it is in the best interests of clarity that we try to be as specific as possible when we discuss "theft" versus "copyright infringement," however complicated by lack of social and international agreement on those terms.

However, I didn't expect to hear disagreement on the fact that we at MR have failed so far to come to an agreement on the essential nature of the e-book, and how that impacts its status as object/property, and our individual rights concerning them. (Or did I miss a memo?)

The only reason no one's stated a "consensus" is because the discussions have inevitably broken down without a resolution, only to be restarted elsewhere... but the fact that we continue to discuss it indicates the fact that we have not all come to an agreement on the issue, but we still feel the need to reach for one, for the good of all concerned. That's a consensus, whether implicitly stated or not.

Anyway... Feel free to discuss the subject further, that's what MR is here for.
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Old 05-15-2008, 04:49 PM   #86
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I agree we haven' t reached a consensus on the topic - obviously.

I felt you implied our stances and feelings on the matter should be dictated by the decisions of the world at large. This is what I was disagreeing with. If I misunderstood, my apologies.
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Old 05-15-2008, 09:59 PM   #87
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I felt you implied our stances and feelings on the matter should be dictated by the decisions of the world at large.
What I meant to imply was that a consensus must be reached in order to solve the issues involved in defining e-books and deciding on their status as products/properties, and how they should be handled and treated by consumers. I think we at MR are in a good position to understand the issues and come up with a consensus that would work for the rest of the world.

However, as we at MR have repeatedly failed to come up with that consensus... I have to think that if the world at large, meaning governments, industry, public, etc, manage to come up with a workable consensus before we do, and satisfy the need for a definition of e-books as product/property... maybe that's a good thing.
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Old 05-16-2008, 05:36 AM   #88
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I am very leery of the current administrations of our various supposed democracies.

To give an an example, back here, the previous copyrights laws were passed in the 70/80's, after long debates in the Parliament that considered every party involved. Consequently, the bills were passed unanimously, when consensus was reached.

That was before.

The latest text has mainly been written by the Industry, rushed through with little regard for the common good, and voted by MPs of the current majority who'd been told to behave by their party.
Somewhat unsurprisingly, that bill was shot down as unconstitutionnal by the relevant body. That's not stopped them from trying again, even though it's been judged as being in violation of Human Rights by the EU.

Should it be surprising to see similar things in other countries, or to hear that Germany has expressed an interest in said bill?
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Old 05-16-2008, 09:11 AM   #89
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I wouldn't look forward to my government's idea of "consensus," either. U.S. laws are pretty much run by industry these days, too... especially when the public has not weighed in on a subject, nor convinced its leaders that they must listen to the public over the industries.

If consensus could be reached by communities like MR, we could develop something to take to our governments and show them how it will work to everyone's advantage. That's how the public influences laws. But so far, we have proven incapable of doing that, which means that when industry is ready, it will have the laws rewritten to its advantage, and we'll be stuck with it.
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Old 05-16-2008, 01:42 PM   #90
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I wouldn't look forward to my government's idea of "consensus," either. U.S. laws are pretty much run by industry these days, too... especially when the public has not weighed in on a subject, nor convinced its leaders that they must listen to the public over the industries.
As a pilot I have read many "notice of rule change proposal". The FAA publishes them before they make changes to the regulations. Usually the AOPA puts an article and analysis of each proposal and their opinion of it and encourages pilots to submit there comments. Many proposals have been modified due to this involvement by AOPA and the pilot community.

BTW: The notices and comment time are required by the FAA's charter.

It would be nice if there were similar community review of the bills that congress is considering. I wonder if people would get involved. This would gives us a truly "representative" democracy.

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