Amazon vs. Hachette Update - It's About Price

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

Most companies tend to treat such information as proprietary. When was the last time Amazon gave out detailed info on the number of kindles they sold and at what price point?

Wait, so you agree?

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Hmm, let's try rereading again...



And then:



Clever, clever you!

If the BWMs' business model decided they weren't worth keeping as authors (nothing to do with "costing them sells sales", sorry) then they should just go indie? I think you are missing the point here.

That business model was the only choice! At the time they were squeezed out!

Whatever. Maybe if you didn't keep smacking yourself in the head, trying to pretend that I'm saying something I'm not, you wouldn't be so confused.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

Whatever. Maybe if you didn't keep smacking yourself in the head, trying to pretend that I'm saying something I'm not, you wouldn't be so confused.

Just so long as you have a rationale.

I really appreciate all the hard work you put into validating sources and coming up with sound logic for everything you say.

(There's nothing I hate more than when people resort to pointless namecalling without any explanation. Sure sign that the conversation is dead.)

[SteveEisenberg]

Originally Posted by ApK

You keep separating fiction from your precious Chinese history masterpiece as if fiction takes no time, effort or research . . .

Do you have a quotation where I said that?

If you do, and I agree that's what it says, I'll be glad to retract it.

As for the phrase "Chinese history masterpiece", I take it you are not going to read that kind of book. Then you shouldn't care how much it costs. Problem solved. (True, it's not solved, for me, if the publisher goes bankrupt due to overpricing, or underpricing, or mistreatment of authors. However, so far, the publishers seem to be managing the transition to digital reading without much product quality deterioration -- and, from a balance sheet standpoint, better than Amazon.)

Originally Posted by ApK

At least until we go to my system of grants, crowd funding or patronage.

There are lots of books published by academic publishers who pay a pittance of an advance (often way under US$1,000) and where the research was funded by grants supplemented by a university salary, or visa versa. With -- like everything concerning books -- exceptions, they tend to be dry. And the big publisher books, in my experience, tend to be better. I believe the most plausible reason for this is because the big publishers do a better job of improving manuscripts.

The alternative to big publishers is not necessarily cheaper. Here is an academic title, and its almost-big publisher popularization, as an example:

Deterrence and Crime Prevention: Reconsidering the Prospect of Sanction by David M. Kennedy (Routledge, 2008, $39.46 for Kindle edition, recently available as rental)

Don't Shoot: One Man, a Street Fellowship, and the End of Violence in Inner-City America by David M. Kennedy (Bloomsbury, 2011, $9.48 for Kindle edition; would be more if newer)

I haven't read the first one above, but the Bloomsbury title is quite good. And if Amazon is squeezing Bloomsbury, I hope Amazon loses.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Just so long as you have a rationale.

I really appreciate all the hard work you put into validating sources and coming up with sound logic for everything you say.

(There's nothing I hate more than when people resort to pointless namecalling without any explanation. Sure sign that the conversation is dead.)

You hate yourself that much?

[rhadin]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

There are a group of authors whom I buy as soon as a new book becomes available, even at hard back prices (note this is the money that is lost with the Amazon one size fits all model)... This group isn't all that big maybe 20 or 30 authors who are currently active...

The next group is authors that I buy at paperback prices. This includes authors whom I basically like, but that I don't consider particularly special. There are a lot of books and authors in this group. I will take a chance on a new author at paper back prices if the book looks interesting, while I probably won't do so at hardback prices.

except that I would add that PWalker's description, for me, applies only to fiction. In the case of nonfiction, which is the majority of what I buy, I only buy hardcover (although occasionally I will buy both the hardcover and ebook versions).

[rhadin]

Originally Posted by Anthem

That's the problem with ALL of these arguments and speculations: the book industry is so tight lipped about EVERYTHING that people have to resort to guessing if they wish to talk about it at all.

I don't know what secret sauce these companies are afraid of spilling, but when speculation is all that people have, speculate is what they will do. And they positively encourage it, by shepherding consumers in to their scuffles (normally to use them as a big stick for whacking things).

True, but let's not forget that your statement can readily replace "book industry" (by which I assume you mean publishers) with "Amazon". It is not as if Amazon has been any more forthcoming than the publishers. It is a game of "he said, she said".

[rhadin]

Originally Posted by gweeks

That model has done a very good job of squeezing many mid-list authors (that I would like to read more of) entirely out of writing.

There isn't a business model except self-publishing that wouldn't squeeze SOME mid-list authors entirely out of writing. The fact that they are mid-list means that their sales were and are mediocre. Not enough sales for a business model to invest money in, but enough sales for a motivated author to self-publish, invest his/her own dollars into marketing, and reap the rewards directly.

That only a few have decided to take on the challenge of self-publishing and self-marketing is a good indicator that they, too, do not see a very profitable upside to their book.

[DuckieTigger]

Originally Posted by rhadin

True, but let's not forget that your statement can readily replace "book industry" (by which I assume you mean publishers) with "Amazon". It is not as if Amazon has been any more forthcoming than the publishers. It is a game of "he said, she said".

Amazon is in the unique position of being both - a major publisher (purely based on size) and a major book retailer. And they have the same right and self interest as any other business to keep their secrets.

[Anthem]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

Most companies tend to treat such information as proprietary. When was the last time Amazon gave out detailed info on the number of kindles they sold and at what price point?

Exactly.

Originally Posted by rhadin

True, but let's not forget that your statement can readily replace "book industry" (by which I assume you mean publishers) with "Amazon". It is not as if Amazon has been any more forthcoming than the publishers. It is a game of "he said, she said".

You assume most wrong: I meant EVERYONE. Including the retailers, the publishers, etc., etc..

The fact that no one provides the kind of information people would need to speculate intelligently means that if they are going to speculate at all, it will continue to be the sort of mostly useless speculation to which we are now treated.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by DuckieTigger

Amazon is in the unique position of being both - a major publisher (purely based on size) and a major book retailer. And they have the same right and self interest as any other business to keep their secrets.

It could be that Amazon follows the same publishing model as some of the big Romance publishers and the publishers of various shared universe series, i.e. the writer isn't really all that important. I would be interested to see what the top sellers are for those books that Amazon publishes. I can think of a number of potential authors who could potentially do well. I also wonder how many books published by Amazon follow the self published model rather than the full service published model.

[DuckieTigger]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

It could be that Amazon follows the same publishing model as some of the big Romance publishers and the publishers of various shared universe series, i.e. the writer isn't really all that important. I would be interested to see what the top sellers are for those books that Amazon publishes. I can think of a number of potential authors who could potentially do well. I also wonder how many books published by Amazon follow the self published model rather than the full service published model.

We would all love to see into the books of Amazon. Not holding my breath though. It can be argued that other publishers don't care about their authors either - and simply use those few money making machines at the expense of others. Publishing is a business and not a charity - one model is not necessarily better or worse than another.

[conan50]

I have frequently thought: What if a book only has 10,000 readers, or 5,000, or even just 1,000 readers who alone in the world want/need that particular book? Who will publish it? No traditional publisher would touch it. And that is why, to that particular author, Amazon is needed and Hachette is not.
Very interesting article I just came across about this conflict:
http://techcrunch.com/2014/08/30/few...8TechCrunch%29

[conan50]

Something else that comes to mind, if the big publishers are so afraid of Amazon and fear it as a monopoly, the best thing they could do is buy out Nook from B&N and sell their books exclusively there. It would help prevent Amazon from having a monopoly, and give them leverage in the ebook online market.

[SteveEisenberg]

Originally Posted by conan50

I have frequently thought: What if a book only has 10,000 readers, or 5,000, or even just 1,000 readers who alone in the world want/need that particular book? Who will publish it? No traditional publisher would touch it. And that is why, to that particular author, Amazon is needed and Hachette is not.

1. It's true that Amazon created a marketplace where self-publishing is more viable than in the past. But that was then. By pressuring indie competitors like Hachette to lower prices, Amazon will, if successful, reduce indie sales.

2. In 2006, before the Kindle and Nook, the average book published in the US sold 500 copies. As implied by my link, even some major publisher books sell under 1,000 copies. Of course, the publisher was hoping to sell more. But except with a name brand author, you can't know, in advance, that sales will be substantial. This goes for indie just as for Hachette. Now, there are some specialized academic titles -- says, ones addressed to experts in an particular area of mathematics -- that couldn't possibly be bestsellers. Still, there are thousands of substantial college and university libraries, and the hope is at least that most of them will want the book. But, often, they don't. Publishing is, by its nature, risky. The most important social function of publishers, other than manuscript improvement, is to take some of that risk away from authors by paying an advance for a book that may not sell.

3. There is one genre of book where your link is truly applicable: Poetry. That's because, AFAIK, poets turn in finished work. For most other types of books, the importance of the publisher to the reader is the editing. Your link author seems to think that the author turns over a finished manuscript. But often the publisher buys a book on the basis of a proposal and a first chapter, helping the author to craft the remainder. Or the author turns in a manuscript that he or she thinks is almost perfect, but is far from it. This is from one of the comments in your link:

My editor went over every sentence in the book and helped me craft it and change things that needed to be changed. My copy editor helped correct problems in the text -- like changing "silicone" to "silicon" -- and made sure I got facts right. The art editor commissioned a great cover and designed the inside of the book. I'd go back and forth from the house in Brooklyn where I lived with my parents to the publisher's office on Union Square in Manhattan and to my editor's apartment on weekends. Publishers are not just middlemen; they are partners, fellow creators in bringing out a book.

Hachette may not always give this much help. Perhaps they should do it more often. But when, as often, it is needed, I think the chances of the author self-funding (or crowd-sourcing) it are low, both for financial reasons and due to author ego considerations. And the more Amazon squeezes Hachette, the less likely Hachette is to maintain a cost structure allowing them to turn mediocre books into good ones, and good ones into great ones.

Of course, some manuscripts only need moderate editing and/or are written by authors who can afford to pay for substantial editing. These will work, from a reader standpoint, fine with self-publishing. There is a place for multiple publishing models.