Microsoft Surface Pro, global availability

[mgmueller]

In case you missed it:
http://www.onlinewelten.com/games/mi...egeben-121068/

Surface Pro will be available in Germany from May 31st.
128GB = ca. € 980.
64GB = ca. € 880.
My personal guess: This release date should be valid for most European countries.

My personal experience (got mine ca. 6 weeks ago from the US):
It's a bit bulky and can get real warm.
But it's an interesting concept.
Personally, I slightly prefer Dell Latitude 10. With its Atom processor, it doesn't need a fan and doesn't get warm and it's powerful enough for my needs. And it's significantly lighter and less bulky.
But for the ones that need real power, Surface Pro definitely is the way to go.
And the touch and type covers are a stroke of genius!

An article on the same website states, Microsoft so far only has sold 1.4 million of both tablets.
It's a shame, but I kind of understand it.
If I look at tablet users on the train, most play games or watch movies. You don't need a "powerhouse" for that. You can do so on an Amazon Kindle Fire HD for € 200. Or you can go for an iPad for the same price (or even slightly less) as a Surface Pro and get a universe of apps.
Still, I absolutely (for now) prefer my Windows 8 tablets over the rest. I can do so much more on them...

[mgmueller]

...as they had announced before:
Can be ordered now on the website: http://www.microsoft.com/surface/de-...ows-8-pro/home
And can be bought in lots of stores: http://www.microsoft.com/surface/de-...c_id=GermanyHH
Will be interesting, how well/bad it does.
The sales people in German Saturn and Media Markt told me, Surface RT did sell very bad so far.
I hope it does well enough, I certainly enjoy mine.

[Kumabjorn]

Interesting, here in Sweden Microsoft has marketed the Surface RT fairly aggressively on tv, but my understanding is that sales are lukewarm. I wonder if there is a lack of cool factor factor with it.

[mgmueller]

Originally Posted by Kumabjorn

Interesting, here in Sweden Microsoft has marketed the Surface RT fairly aggressively on tv, but my understanding is that sales are lukewarm. I wonder if there is a lack of cool factor factor with it.

There's lots of marketing here in Germany as well.
So far, it solely has been about Surface RT.
I see posters at most central trainstations, for example.

Maybe, there's simply no benefit in buying from Saturn or Media Markt?
You can see Surface RT in lots of stores. You can check it out "everywhere".
And then order directly from Microsoft.

The only sales figure I've seen was: "€ 1.4 million Surfaces globally (RT and Pro, where available)" ca. 6 weeks ago.
That's really extremely low.
And some manufacturers, I think Acer upfront, openly stated to leave the RT market due to lack of demand.

Although I really like my Surface RT, I have to admit: Why go for a "stripped down" OS, if you can have a full blown Windows 8 tablet (Samsung, Dell, HP, ...) for the same price?
To me, as an early adopter, Surface RT was/is quite compelling.
And I don't want to have a fan (as in cooling) on my tablet. But then you only have to go for an ATOM processor instead of i3/i5.
Surface RT certainly is a workable and fun solution. But if I look at the "mass market", there's not enough games and stuff.

So I simply hope, low sales figures of Surface RT are no indicator for the same with Surface Pro.
I think, Surface Pro deserves some praise. I use mine more and more often. Yes, it gets warm. But so does my MacBook Air. Yes, sometimes I can hear the fan. Again, same on MacBook Air.

I've read an article, listing some high end games that can be played on Surface Pro by reducing some effects:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jasoneva...gelizing-this/
They call them "AAA Games".
The author stated, Microsoft aggressively should market that. I agree. I've briefly played toy soldiers and some other titles from Microsoft Studios. Quite impressive. I've seen some high end titles on iPad and Android as well, but I think this is another league.
Imagine: The marketing capabilities of Apple, the budget Microsoft definitely still has and the technical specs of Surface Pro. It should sell like hell...
Let's hope for the best. It's only in our (the customers) best interest to have a wide choices of OSs. And of all my tablets, Surface Pro and Latitude 10 leave the most choices of software for me.
Where else could you install Bluestacks and emulate Android? Where else could you install another OS within a virtual machine?

[Kumabjorn]

I just read an article saying that HTC will scrap their plans for a 12" RT tablet due to low demand in the segment. Not the kind of development that induced optimism about the segment's future.

[WillysJeepMan]

Originally Posted by Kumabjorn

I just read an article saying that HTC will scrap their plans for a 12" RT tablet due to low demand in the segment. Not the kind of development that induced optimism about the segment's future.

True.

As soon as the Surface RT goes on firesale clearance, I'll be picking one up. I have owned The 30GB Zune, 80GB Zune, and 16GB Zune HD. I still use my Zune HD daily.

From everything I've read, the Surface RT is of exceptional build quality. I'd have no problem buying one off of Woot when the time comes.

I DO have a problem paying a premium price for a hardware platform with no track record... And Microsoft's last 3 previous track records of Zune, Origami, and Kin were not encouraging.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by mgmueller

There's lots of marketing here in Germany as well.
So far, it solely has been about Surface RT.
I see posters at most central trainstations, for example.

Maybe, there's simply no benefit in buying from Saturn or Media Markt?
You can see Surface RT in lots of stores. You can check it out "everywhere".
And then order directly from Microsoft.

The only sales figure I've seen was: "€ 1.4 million Surfaces globally (RT and Pro, where available)" ca. 6 weeks ago.
That's really extremely low.
And some manufacturers, I think Acer upfront, openly stated to leave the RT market due to lack of demand.

Although I really like my Surface RT, I have to admit: Why go for a "stripped down" OS, if you can have a full blown Windows 8 tablet (Samsung, Dell, HP, ...) for the same price?
To me, as an early adopter, Surface RT was/is quite compelling.
And I don't want to have a fan (as in cooling) on my tablet. But then you only have to go for an ATOM processor instead of i3/i5.
Surface RT certainly is a workable and fun solution. But if I look at the "mass market", there's not enough games and stuff.

So I simply hope, low sales figures of Surface RT are no indicator for the same with Surface Pro.
I think, Surface Pro deserves some praise. I use mine more and more often. Yes, it gets warm. But so does my MacBook Air. Yes, sometimes I can hear the fan. Again, same on MacBook Air.

I've read an article, listing some high end games that can be played on Surface Pro by reducing some effects:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jasoneva...gelizing-this/
They call them "AAA Games".
The author stated, Microsoft aggressively should market that. I agree. I've briefly played toy soldiers and some other titles from Microsoft Studios. Quite impressive. I've seen some high end titles on iPad and Android as well, but I think this is another league.
Imagine: The marketing capabilities of Apple, the budget Microsoft definitely still has and the technical specs of Surface Pro. It should sell like hell...
Let's hope for the best. It's only in our (the customers) best interest to have a wide choices of OSs. And of all my tablets, Surface Pro and Latitude 10 leave the most choices of software for me.
Where else could you install Bluestacks and emulate Android? Where else could you install another OS within a virtual machine?

Hi, mgmueller:

I've been avidly interested in obtaining the Pro since the RT arrived on the scene; I'm a power user of productivity tools, particularly in Microsoft and other business applications. I use a ton of SAS (Software as Service) like TeamworksPM, Freshbooks, Desk (from Salesforce), etc. You seem to really like yours, warmness aside. But you also said that for now, you prefer your Dell Latitude, is that right? I'm dying for a Win8 laptop-tablet that isn't for "consumers of content," but for "creators of content," in that iPads, etc, are primarily for people who consume the content provided (I have one; I know that I just don't find it usable for any real work) on the Net, Games, movies, etc. I mean, I wear through keyboards every six months, so I need a box that is sturdy.

I still have but really can't use an old IBM ThinkPad...top of the line at the time, but like all things, it's like, 108 in dog-years, and it's married to XP. My desktop is a pretty mighty Win7 machine, and I've been lusting after the Pro since it was announced. I know a lot of people bought Acer Win8 boxes, but as you can see, I tend to keep my hardware a long time. (Don't see any need whatsoever to buy "the next cool thing." I just want my stuff to WORK.) Overall, how happy are you with that Pro box? And besides warmth, and a bit of weight, any other real drawbacks? I don't "game," so truly couldn't care less about that bit.

Hitch

[mgmueller]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Hi, mgmueller:

I've been avidly interested in obtaining the Pro since the RT arrived on the scene; I'm a power user of productivity tools, particularly in Microsoft and other business applications. I use a ton of SAS (Software as Service) like TeamworksPM, Freshbooks, Desk (from Salesforce), etc. You seem to really like yours, warmness aside. But you also said that for now, you prefer your Dell Latitude, is that right? I'm dying for a Win8 laptop-tablet that isn't for "consumers of content," but for "creators of content," in that iPads, etc, are primarily for people who consume the content provided (I have one; I know that I just don't find it usable for any real work) on the Net, Games, movies, etc. I mean, I wear through keyboards every six months, so I need a box that is sturdy.

I still have but really can't use an old IBM ThinkPad...top of the line at the time, but like all things, it's like, 108 in dog-years, and it's married to XP. My desktop is a pretty mighty Win7 machine, and I've been lusting after the Pro since it was announced. I know a lot of people bought Acer Win8 boxes, but as you can see, I tend to keep my hardware a long time. (Don't see any need whatsoever to buy "the next cool thing." I just want my stuff to WORK.) Overall, how happy are you with that Pro box? And besides warmth, and a bit of weight, any other real drawbacks? I don't "game," so truly couldn't care less about that bit.

Hitch

Surface Pro has really grown on me.
In the beginning, for maybe the first 4 weeks, I still did prefer Latitude 10.
I'm mainly in tablet mode, so the bulk and weight of Surface Pro in comparison to the lightweight Latitude 10 was a clear disadvantage for me.
But the phantastic build quality of Surface Pro more and more got to me.
I still absolutely love my Latitude 10. Atom processor, so no fan needed and still not getting warm.
But whenever I take Surface Pro (or Surface RT) in my hands, it feels "special".
The only other tablet with a similar effect is iPad Mini.
And hopefully next week Google Chromebook Pixel.

Advantages and disadvantages of Surface Pro, mainly compared to Latitude 10:

Advantages of Surface Pro:
a.) Full blown Windows 8.
So far, every single legacy program has been working fine.
I can run 99% on Latitude 10 as well, but there have been a few exceptions.
b.) The phantastic covers.
There have been lots of discussions about usability and such.
But personally, I find both covers a stroke of genius.
When on a trip, I'd never take an additional bluetooth keyboard with me.
But both covers add almost no bulk and still do the job.
c.) The great display.
There probably are other Windows 8 systems out there with similar display quality, for example maybe Sony Duo 11.
But I haven't seen another one with these measurements.
Yes, for a tablet it's bulky. But still perfectly workable. And compared to Ultrabooks, it's even a bit less bulky than my MacBook Air.
You just don't see and feel it at first. Surface Pro feels more bulky as you use it as a tablet. But when you use it as an Ultrabook...
d.) The WACOM stylus.
Great Steve Jobs once said, any stylus/pen would be prove they got it wrong.
I don't agree.
You don't have to use it, you can operate with your fingers as well.
But sometimes it's just fun and/or of enormous use to have a stylus.
Handwritten notes for example.
I love it on both, Surface Pro and latitude 10.
e.) Touch and feel
Of course it's a matter of taste.
But I find both Surface tablets extremely "valuable".
Only comparable with iPad.
Most other tablets look a bit "cheap" and "plasticky".

Disadvantages of Surface Pro:
a.) Weight.
It's certainly more than acceptable for an Ultrabook. And most likely it can't be done much lighter for now.
Still, in tablet mode, it's at the upmost limit.
I already found iPads 1 to 4 a bit too heavy. And Surface Pro even adds to that. And it's slightly "fatter", which doesn't help either.
It's well balanced and comfortable to hold. But after 30 minutes or so you simply feel it in your arms. I'd never, for example, read magazines on it for more than 30 minutes or so.
b.) Battery.
I find this critical on most tablets.
In comparison to Surface RTs 8 to 10 hours, I only make about half of it on Surface Pro.
Latitude 10, probably due to the Atom processor, can do longer. And, quite brilliantly, Dell made the battery exchangeable. You even can use a bigger battery, which adds ca. 1cm bulk to the back of the tablet. I bought a standard battery for backup and love it. Not just for switching batteries on a trip, but for knowing I simply could throw away the old battery after 2 years of usage.
c.) Heat.
Well, heat is a bit harsh. Let's call it "warmth".
It's not painful to the touch, but not perfectly convenient either.
It really gets warm, even though you hear the fan from time to time.
In all fairness: My MacBook Air even gets warmer and I hear its fan more often. But on your desktop you don't bother much. When holding in your hands on the other side...
I was a bit annoyed with iPad 3 about the warmth, same about Surface Pro. It's no real problem, but it's simply not "perfect".
d.) Fan noise.
I guess, Microsoft did solve the cooling brilliantly. You rarely hear the fan and you don't feel the air blowing. Still, from time to time, there's a slight whisper. Far from annoying or distracting. But you usually don't hear a fan on tablets, so again it's not "perfect".

Meaning:
It's hard to choose between Surface Pro and Latitude 10.
And fortunately, I don't have to.
I switch between both.
Latitude 10 when I have to worry about weight and bulk, for example when on the train.
Surface Pro, when I just want to enjoy the quality product.

But I clearly can say, that both rank #1 and #2 of all my tablets (for now).
I thought about Sony Tablet Z.
But then I asked myself: With the exception of the "new factor", what would I actually want to do on an Android tablet?
I'll definitely buy the next iPad, as it's a different approach. To me, iPad is a great gadget/toy. But Android tablets had been my "workhorses", chosen because of the filesystem and such. And here each of my Windows 8 tablets does offer more. Even Surface RT. And even more so Latitude 10 and Surface Pro.

Next to Surface Pro, some of the hybrids might be worth considering for you.
I had bought the Sony Duo 11. This was the only hardware, I ever gave back. As a tablet, it didn't have any "sex appeal". And as an Ultrabook, I din't like the fan.
But I don't need much processing power for my usage pattern. Would I need a real "working horse", hybrids might make sense: Toshiba Satellite U920T or Sony Duo 11 for example.

[mgmueller]

Originally Posted by WillysJeepMan

...As soon as the Surface RT goes on firesale clearance, I'll be picking one up...

Do you actually expect that?
Given Microsoft's enormously "deep pockets", I don't see the need.
BlackBerry, with their phantastic PlayBook, unfortunately had to go that way. Low sales figures of the tablet due to lack of apps and "not very deep pockets" at that time make for a logic explanation.
But would Microsoft do that? Why not just let the stocked Surface RTs trickle out instead of admitting failure?
If they go for a firesale, they basically admit defeat. Not just of some hardware, but of Windows RT as a whole. They might try to separate Windows RT from Windows 8. But I think, to the consumer the discussions about "decline of the PC market is all Microsoft's fault with Windows 8" would be nourished further.
Personally, I expect Microsoft not putting much effort into Windows RT in the near future anymore. But never openly admitting failure either...

[mgmueller]

Originally Posted by Kumabjorn

I just read an article saying that HTC will scrap their plans for a 12" RT tablet due to low demand in the segment. Not the kind of development that induced optimism about the segment's future.

"The segment" probably being Windows RT.
Not Surface as a product family.
Not Windows 8 as an OS.
I kind of understand the problems of Surface RT and/or Windows RT.
As a new, separate platform, it might be interesting. But basically competing with Surface Pro respectively Windows 8 from the same house, raises questions of course: Why go for Surface RT instead of Surface Pro?

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by mgmueller

Surface Pro has really grown on me.
In the beginning, for maybe the first 4 weeks, I still did prefer Latitude 10.
I'm mainly in tablet mode, so the bulk and weight of Surface Pro in comparison to the lightweight Latitude 10 was a clear disadvantage for me.
But the phantastic build quality of Surface Pro more and more got to me.
I still absolutely love my Latitude 10. Atom processor, so no fan needed and still not getting warm.
But whenever I take Surface Pro (or Surface RT) in my hands, it feels "special".
The only other tablet with a similar effect is iPad Mini.
And hopefully next week Google Chromebook Pixel.

Advantages and disadvantages of Surface Pro, mainly compared to Latitude 10:

Thank you, seriously. Worth every minute spent reading it, and I expect to come back to it to read again as I decide.

When it comes to sales, I genuinely believe that two things hurt the Surface; one, the price is obviously on the higher side. By definition, there's always a larger market for a cheaper product. Secondly, Microsoft suffers from a pretty unjust fanboi hatred of all things "Bill Gates." It simply does. Unlike Steve Jobs, who has/had a fabulous reputation and was widely loved, the Bill Gates-effect still haunts Microsoft. It's a ridiculous bit of bias, in both directions, but it exists. Jobs obviously knew how to make gadgets "cool," as evinced by the fact that at least, during his tenure, people would stand in line for hours/days to buy a phone, for the love of heaven. A gadget. A tool. Not a free sex act--a phone.

On the other hand, you can go to any geek forum on the net and you'll find rabid haters of all things Microsoft. It patently affects the products and their reception amongst buyers. A lot of that hatred is directed right at Gates. {shrug}. I personally don't get either--the rabid fanboi love for Jobs or the hatred for Gates--but the effect on the product perception is obvious.

I suspect that if you take that, throw in some recession in the US, and the fact that the "coolness" factor of the Surface doesn't approach that of any Apple item, no matter how semi-useless or frittery, you get to where Microsoft is with the Surface. I'm sorry to see it, myself; I'd hoped that the Surface would herald some tablets/laptops that were strictly geared toward productivity, not consumption or games. (Sort of like the original Crackberry, compared to other cellphones--all business adopters, so to speak).

Thanks again. It's a thoroughly helpful comparison for me.

Hitch

[pl001]

Originally Posted by mgmueller

Why go for Surface RT instead of Surface Pro?

Half the cost, twice the battery life, and significantly less weight. Those are pretty compelling reasons.

For the price of a Pro you can buy an RT plus a i5 PC and use RDP on the RT to control that PC when you need it. Because of this I personally don't have any need for a Pro, and I think most consumers who carefully evaluate their mobile computing needs would find the same thing. The Pro certainly has its place, but the RT is more capable than most people believe.

[mgmueller]

Originally Posted by Hitch

...Microsoft suffers from a pretty unjust fanboi hatred of all things "Bill Gates."...Unlike Steve Jobs, who has/had a fabulous reputation and was widely loved, the Bill Gates-effect still haunts Microsoft....

I never got the bashing against Microsoft.
Yes, they had been close to 100% market share.
Yes, puns such as "total word domination" had been funny and original.
But basically, everyone had do admit:
They understood their business and succeeded in dimensions, all corporates aim for and only few ever achieve.

And now, in my perception, we see similar tendencies with Apple and even more so with Google.

Personally, I admire both. Plus Amazon and the likes.
In the right segment, I'd gladly work for each of them.
(Or even more happily would accept stock options).

But as soon as those corporates loose their "underdog" status and remain successful or even dominate for some time, hatred arrises.

Personally, I don't mind Google having tons of data about me.
I'm fascinated how cleverly they adjust search results to my history of interests.
And to me, there's an obvious reason why "googling" made it to the dictionaries, but no-one uses phrases like "yahooing" for example.

But still, for some time now, Google seems to attract more and more hatred.
And same has started with Apple. "Is Apple not cool anymore?".
What an idiotic question. Instantaneously I could name 100 corporates, happily trading places with Apple. Or Microsoft, Google, Amazon and the likes.

Obviously, what we experience in our personal life (envy, resentment, malice, ...) is true on higher levels (corporates, countries, ...) as well.

Anyway...
Microsoft's image certainly is one of the reasons, why both Surface tablets don't get the attention they deserve.
But same has happened before with HP TouchPad and BlackBerry PlayBook. Both, in my opinion, did have a more advanced OS than Android or iOS at that time. Both failed miserably.
Lack of apps obviously being one reason. Unfortunately, to some extent, that's true for Surface RT/Windows RT as well.
Being a bit late to the game probably another reason.
Not having the "cool factor" not helping either.
But:
Microsoft, contrary to most competitors, does have the muscles.
And their tablets, especially Surface Pro with Windows 8, are deeply rooted in their core basis.
In my book, Microsoft simply can't afford to leave the game early. They may burn some money. But they did so with Xbox in the beginning as well. I remember the times, when everybody was laughing about Xbox. Well, Sony certainly isn't laughing anymore. Okay, now many laugh about Xbox One again, but we'll see about that.
Meaning: I don't think, Microsoft will give up as easily as HP or BlackBerry did. They can and will invest. And, quite objectively, I find their tablets more than adequate and over time simply rely on the smarts of the market...
So, eventually, I see the 3 giants share the market. Android probably being biggest, due to the licensing and business model of Google. Microsoft and Apple probably being about even in 2 years or so. Apple might further decline in market share, but sticking to a highly profitable model that can be fun for 30% market share as well...

[mgmueller]

Originally Posted by pl001

Half the cost, twice the battery life, and significantly less weight. Those are pretty compelling reasons.

For the price of a Pro you can buy an RT plus a i5 PC and use RDP on the RT to control that PC when you need it. Because of this I personally don't have any need for a Pro, and I think most consumers who carefully evaluate their mobile computing needs would find the same thing. The Pro certainly has its place, but the RT is more capable than most people believe.

But this still wouldn't be an argument, solely supporting Surface RT.
You can remotely connect to your PC via iPad or Android tablets as well.
So this might be an argument against Surface Pro, but probably not for Surface RT exclusively.

[pl001]

Originally Posted by mgmueller

But this still wouldn't be an argument, solely supporting Surface RT.
You can remotely connect to your PC via iPad or Android tablets as well.

That is true. But unlike iPad and Android, RT gives you a lot of native PC capabilities like Office, file management, peripheral support, plus a great keyboard/kickstand combo and a browser that can handle pretty much any website the same as a PC would.

It's not perfect by any means, but it's a solid device far more capable than any other tablet. Well, in theory anyway, the app store is improving but still a major limitation. Between Office and the web my productivity needs are met, however the "fun app" selection stinks, this from somebody who doesn't hardly play games.