Nook vs. Kindle (ha!)

[Wolf3]

Originally Posted by Pushka

Reading on the LCD is similar to reading on a computer, so if your job involves using a computer for lots of the day, then reading for pleasure on an LCD screen might seem more like work, than fun. And your eyes might think the same. But if you didn't work with computers then I am guessing this wouldn't be an issue.

Yeah. I stare at an LCD monitor for 8 hours. Then I come home and spend hours more in front of an LCD TV or monitor...reading before bed on yet ANOTHER display like that...

I don't know how this compares to the iPad's screen...I'd assume it's about the same, but when I briefly had one of those, I still preferred reading on my Kindle 2 (and presumably I'd like eInk Pearl that much more).

[ColdSun]

Originally Posted by jocampo

No one is trying to impose others opinions but it is just not true that with direct sun light an LCD screen just reads better than a non reflective screen, that's just not true. Even here on this site, when reading pure text or novels you'll find that majority of people prefer eink devices.

If you like your Nook Color fine, enjoy, but let's be clear about the pros and cons of each technology, aside of passionated debates or personal preferences.

Maybe if you could keep your personal preferences and opinions seperate from the facts this could happen. It seems to me that your very statements above are not only incorrect but hypocritical as well. You appear to be in every thread spouting the same thing, and NO what you say isn't proven or true - about the number of users who prefer one device or the other (and even on this site), or even your defacto declaration that LCD is harder on your eyes.

I've been a member of this site for longer than eink has been sold. We discussed PDAs, LCD devices, Minicomputers, and other devices that you could read from. It is only within the last few years that the eink crowd descended from above to tell us what we should be reading on. To the dismay of many users here, eink took off and they abandoned many devices that could have made reading in low light situations great for fans like me. Last year I predicted this would change, as did many others, as Apple entered the fray with better iPods, iPhones and finally the iPad (which only cemented an already growing market for LCD devices). So while there are many people who enjoy reading on eink, there are also many people who read on their phone, iPod, Tablet, Netbook, Media Player... You get the point. Combine those devices and the eink faction isn't any bigger.

Beyond the dead horse argument and opinions on which is better, there are solid facts people who wish to pick a device can go from:

1. Eink is clearly better for direct sunlight

2. Eink has better battery life

3. Eink is not as good in low light situations due to unevenly lit screen lighting methods (attaching lights or reading from a lamp). Some folks, like me, have partners who don't like lamps on while they are sleeping.

4. Eink is a single-purpose screen - reading.

5. LCD devices often have many other functions (music, video, web, etc).

6. Some users complain of eye strain on either eink or LCD. There are studies on both sides of the fence and the bottom line is you have to decide for yourself which suits your eyes best. There is NO conclusive proof that one or the other is better for your eyes.

7. Tablet-sized devices are more popular than ever before with every major electronics company making them from LG to Motorla. These devices using powerful mobile OS like iOS or Android have full application ecosystems that grow every day. Like the Apple mantra says, "There is an app for that." True with Android as well, and soon the very powerful WebOS from Palm/HP. Microsoft has released Windows Phone 7, and by my estimates we should see an announcment from them soon about Windows Tablet 7. We are on the verge of a virtual revolution in mobile computing.

8. If you like to buy your ebooks from multiple sources, and not just be stuck with one vendor, buy a device using iOS or Android. You can literally buy books from any source and find a compatible application for it on these devices. Like Amazon? Download the app and buy from them. See a cheaper price at B&N? Get their Nook app. Or download one of several apps that support DRM'ed ebooks...

Go over that list and decide what you want most, and what you can live with or without. If you read a lot outside in full light then eink might be your best bet (popular with students on the move). If you want a device that you can read in most lighting situations that does more than just replace a paper book, get LCD. If you want to get books and love paper books, you may not like LCD. Your best bet is to get EInk, as that will give you the experience of reading from a real paper book.

Last but not least, technology is constantly changing as do people's opinions. If you are going to join the Mobileread (a site for reading on all mobile devices) revolution for reading on portable devices you may want to be ready to change with things. The opinion that eink is superior is quickly becoming outdated. This year we will see new technology that will make today's eink and LCD users change their opinions all over again.

[jocampo]

Originally Posted by ColdSun

Maybe if you could keep your personal preferences and opinions seperate from the facts this could happen. It seems to me that your very statements above are not only incorrect but hypocritical as well. You appear to be in every thread spouting the same thing, and NO what you say isn't proven or true - about the number of users who prefer one device or the other (and even on this site), or even your defacto declaration that LCD is harder on your eyes.

I've been a member of this site for longer than eink has been sold. We discussed PDAs, LCD devices, Minicomputers, and other devices that you could read from. It is only within the last few years that the eink crowd descended from above to tell us what we should be reading on. To the dismay of many users here, eink took off and they abandoned many devices that could have made reading in low light situations great for fans like me. Last year I predicted this would change, as did many others, as Apple entered the fray with better iPods, iPhones and finally the iPad (which only cemented an already growing market for LCD devices). So while there are many people who enjoy reading on eink, there are also many people who read on their phone, iPod, Tablet, Netbook, Media Player... You get the point. Combine those devices and the eink faction isn't any bigger.

Beyond the dead horse argument and opinions on which is better, there are solid facts people who wish to pick a device can go from:

1. Eink is clearly better for direct sunlight

2. Eink has better battery life

3. Eink is not as good in low light situations due to unevenly lit screen lighting methods (attaching lights or reading from a lamp). Some folks, like me, have partners who don't like lamps on while they are sleeping.

4. Eink is a single-purpose screen - reading.

5. LCD devices often have many other functions (music, video, web, etc).

6. Some users complain of eye strain on either eink or LCD. There are studies on both sides of the fence and the bottom line is you have to decide for yourself which suits your eyes best. There is NO conclusive proof that one or the other is better for your eyes.

7. Tablet-sized devices are more popular than ever before with every major electronics company making them from LG to Motorla. These devices using powerful mobile OS like iOS or Android have full application ecosystems that grow every day. Like the Apple mantra says, "There is an app for that." True with Android as well, and soon the very powerful WebOS from Palm/HP. We are on the verge of a virtual revolution in mobile computing.

Go over that list and decide what you want most, and what you can live with or without. If you read a lot outside in full light then eink might be your best bet (popular with students on the move). If you want a device that you can read in most lighting situations that does more than just replace a paper book, get LCD. If you want to get books and love paper books, you may not like LCD. Your best bet is to get EInk, as that will give you the experience of reading from a real paper book.

Last but not least, technology is constantly changing as do people's opinions. If you are going to join the Mobileread revolution for reading on portable devices you may want to be ready to change with things. The opinion that eink is superior is quickly becoming outdated. This year we will see new technology that will make today's eink and LCD users change their opinions all over again.

The amount of LCD devices that have been sold are not a true representation of the amount of people who use those for reading purposes only. Take the iPad, for example; that's a multipurpose device and we even have people that they never read or download Kindle or Nook for Android, so your argument has no support at all. Moreover, we have been using LCD displays for so long because still now there is nothing cheaper, easy for mass production that can be used for computer monitors or to display images or multimedia content with high refresh rate. That does not mean they are good, means there is not a good and better replacement yet.

Saying that eink is better for normal lighting conditions is not an opinion, is a scientific fact. Human eyes read and see based on the natural reflection of light, coming from the sun. Artificial lights like LCD, bulbs, etc, are just an artificial representation of what the natural light is and should be. They are better now than 50 or even 10 years before, but still are not natural. In fact, they are a lot of studies that already confirmed that LCD screens and artificial lights reduce the amount of melatonin; the result of that is insomnia or problems to fall sleep when reading from those devices instead of regular pbooks or even eink.

eink, does not emit light, is the most natural way to read. Nothing is coming from the screen so what you see and read is thanks to the natural reflection of the ambient light against the screen. A few of the benefits:

No parallax
On eink black and white particles move and reside on same layer, so when reading, everything looks and really is on the top of the screen, giving a true reading or paper feeling.

On LCD, the white color is coming from back light while black is coming from the front, the liquid crystal layer in the middle; that creates a shadow which gets worse if you read at angle, decreasing the quality of the reading experience and the legibility of the letters and whole content.

Less Glare
Self explanatory. Because eink screens are treated to be matte like a printed page, there is low or no reflection, so what you see is what you are reading, not the content plus additional light reflection, very common on all LCD screens (more or less noticeable in certain devices, depending of the overall quality of the screen)

No aperture ratio loss
The pixels on LCD screens do not have a full aperture ratio. E Ink screens have a 100% aperture ratio.

So when two black pixels are close on a eink screen, they join to create a true solid black (or white, depending) improving the image quality.

So yes, technology is changing and a lot of companies are developing new and better LCD devices (I actually work for one of them) but still they have not come yet with something that, for a pure text book, can be more pleasant for your eyes than eink.

Last but not least, it is kind of funny that companies like B&N, which started selling eink devices, were just talking amazing things about eink. Once they started to sell the Nook Color, all of the sudden LCD becomes better and ideal for everything.

The point is that eye strain is not a myth. And you cannot just deny it because you love your LCD device. And no, reading Magazines on an eink device is not nice, but reading 600 pages of a book without stopping on an eink display is way more comfortable than doing the same on an LCD screen. And that's what I keep repeating and will keep saying, until of course, something new and revolutionary takes place and change the current options that we have for ereaders or tablets.

And for the records, I do own an LCD device, a Galaxy Tab and just recently bought an iPad so I can use it for a few PDF documents I have, plus two Kindles. So my interest on one or another is the same or none.

[ColdSun]

Originally Posted by jocampo

The amount of LCD devices that have been sold are not a true representation of the amount of people who use those for reading purposes only. Take the iPad, for example; that's a multipurpose device and we even have people that they never read or download Kindle or Nook for Android, so your argument has no support at all. Moreover, we have been using LCD displays for so long because still now there is nothing cheaper, easy for mass production that can be used for computer monitors or to display images or multimedia content with high refresh rate. That does not mean they are good, means there is not a good and better replacement yet.

This is bunk. You have said nothing here at all. Moving along and hoping to find something about real technology...

Originally Posted by jocampo

Saying that eink is better for normal lighting conditions is not an opinion, is a scientific fact. Human eyes read and see based on the natural reflection of light, coming from the sun. Artificial lights like LCD, bulbs, etc, are just an artificial representation of what the natural light is and should be. They are better now than 50 or even 10 years before, but still are not natural. In fact, they are a lot of studies that already confirmed that LCD screens and artificial lights reduce the amount of melatonin; the result of that is insomnia or problems to fall sleep when reading from those devices instead of regular pbooks or even eink.

It is NOT a fact. We have several studies that prove otherwise that I could throw your way as well. More waste of people's time...

Originally Posted by jocampo

eink, does not emit light, is the most natural way to read. Nothing is coming from the screen so what you see and read is thanks to the natural reflection of the ambient light against the screen. A few of the benefits:

No parallax
On eink black and white particles move and reside on same layer, so when reading, everything looks and really is on the top of the screen, giving a true reading or paper feeling.

On LCD, the white color is coming from back light while black is coming from the front, the liquid crystal layer in the middle; that creates a shadow which gets worse if you read at angle, decreasing the quality of the reading experience and the legibility of the letters and whole content.

Less Glare
Self explanatory. Because eink screens are treated to be matte like a printed page, there is low or no reflection, so what you see is what you are reading, not the content plus additional light reflection, very common on all LCD screens (more or less noticeable in certain devices, depending of the overall quality of the screen)

No aperture ratio loss
The pixels on LCD screens do not have a full aperture ratio. E Ink screens have a 100% aperture ratio.

So when two black pixels are close on a eink screen, they join to create a true solid black (or white, depending) improving the image quality.

So yes, technology is changing and a lot of companies are developing new and better LCD devices (I actually work for one of them) but still they have not come yet with something that, for a pure text book, can be more pleasant for your eyes than eink.

Nice marketing materials. Did you copy/paste this from the Kindle site? I actually work for one of these technology companies too. In fact, one of the largest companies in the world. I'm a senior senior developer (meaning seniors work for me). I wonder why my company doesn't sell an eink reader?

Originally Posted by jocampo

Last but not least, it is kind of funny that companies like B&N, which started selling eink devices, were just talking amazing things about eink. Once they started to sell the Nook Color, all of the sudden LCD becomes better and ideal for everything.

Like I said, technology changes. People's opinions change. Right now we have convergence of devices on many levels. Many of the things we do are moving over to mobile applications. I guess all these people buying iPads, Android phones and other tablets are all going to have their eyes fried and become blind... Except if that were true I would be blind a long time ago.

Originally Posted by jocampo

The point is that eye strain is not a myth. And you cannot just deny it because you love your LCD device. And no, reading Magazines on an eink device is not nice, but reading 600 pages of a book without stopping on an eink display is way more comfortable than doing the same on an LCD screen. And that's what I keep repeating and will keep saying, until of course, something new and revolutionary takes place and change the current options that we have for ereaders or tablets.

Never said eye strain was a myth, I said saying LCD causes more eye strain than Eink was a myth. Reading from a plain paper book causes eye strain. Reading from eink using a poorly lit LED light causes eye strain. Watching cars pass by on the street causes eye strain. Reading the neverending false information about LCD screens causes eye strain.

Also, I'll make another prediction. Amazon will start selling devices for reading with LCD screens. It will happen in Q2. Let me know if I'm right in a few months. Seriously, they can't afford not to. Look at Nokia, Once leader of the phone market now quickly losing ground to Android and iPhone. They recently announced they will now be shipping phones with Windows Phone 7. So much for standing fast with Symbian and Meego. Blackberry losing market share because they were slow on the uptake... Once Amazon shareholders start losing money their tune will change.

[jocampo]

If still you don't believe, take a look:

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=121406

People just prefer eink devices when reading and the opinion is that LCD causes eye strain.

[iandix]

yes jocampo ..you speak for everyone...

can you not believe that some people may have a different view to the world than you?

[jocampo]

Originally Posted by ColdSun

I'm a senior senior developer (meaning seniors work for me). I wonder why my company doesn't sell an eink reader?

[jocampo]

Originally Posted by iandix

yes jocampo ..you speak for everyone...

can you not believe that some people may have a different view to the world than you?

I'll not make any comment to your post or any other person anymore, this thread has become something personal than anything else. Just take a look on what other folks say about it and take your own conclusions.

[ColdSun]

Originally Posted by jocampo

If still you don't believe, take a look:

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=121406

People just prefer eink devices when reading and the opinion is that LCD causes eye strain.

LOL. Well I'll do an experiment of my own. I'll take my son's Kindle and my NC to the coffee shop in the next couple days and I will place them both on a table and see which one gets the most oooohh and ahhhs, That is usually a clear indicator of which device will sell better.

That thread means nothing though. The more telling stat is the amount of posts in the Apple forums, Android forums, Other devices, and Nook forums. See how they have shot up? See how many of the topics here are about NC? It doesn't matter how many times you post in these threads you just can't stop the juggernaut.

[ColdSun]

Originally Posted by jocampo

Hey I was only responding to your comment that you worked for a major IT company. If you hadn't said that like it was supposed to make me change my mind or influence the people here I wouldn't have called you out by demonstrating my own credentials.

[ColdSun]

Originally Posted by jocampo

I'll not make any comment to your post or any other person anymore, this thread has become something personal than anything else. Just take a look on what other folks say about it and take your own conclusions.

Oh so now its personal because I have my difference of opinion and have called you on yours? If anything, you are the victim of your own success in trolling the NC threads.

[jocampo]

Originally Posted by ColdSun

Oh so now its personal because I have my difference of opinion and have called you on yours? If anything, you are the victim of your own success in trolling the NC threads.

Insulting folks or call me a troll because I differ in your opinion does not make your comments more solid. But I already noticed that's your modus operandi in other sub-forums as well; taking things personal and insulting everyone who just differ of your opinion about LCD devices or screens.

I feel sorry about you and thought you had more to debate that just derogatory terms and personal attacks.

Shame on you!

[ColdSun]

Merged below

[ColdSun]

Originally Posted by jocampo

Insulting folks or call me a troll because I differ in your opinion does not make your comments more solid. But I already noticed that's your modus operandi in other sub-forums as well; taking things personal and insulting everyone who just differ of your opinion about LCD devices or screens.

I feel sorry about you and thought you had more to debate that just derogatory terms and personal attacks.

Shame on you!

Now you are coming up with science fiction. Speaking of modus operandi, I believe this thread and just about every other thread a person would like to reference in this forum speak volumes about your own, Like you said to me in the private message, I have an opinion and I'll continue to post it. If you don't like it when people challenge you on it then you shouldn't continue posting the same thing over and over in every thread about the NC.

Seriously, shame on you? So far in this thread alone I count three instances where you should have taken your own advice. I've been a member here a long time and the only time I can recall disagreements is when people post incorrect and often rude information about LCD devices. I don't need to defend myself from you considering just one of my review threads helping people has 100 times more use than the tons of little posts you have about this same topic in this forum alone.

[Grimm]

Originally Posted by jocampo

No, no opinion. With proper light conditions eink provides better experience.

You do not speak for me jocampo nor do you know what is a better experience for me. I'd appreciate it if you'd stop trying to tell people what they prefer.