A Good Analogy

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

All that will happen is people will buy books in a format they know they can strip out the adverts and do so. Then the adverts will no longer be an issue overall.

That or people won't buy the books.

Remember, we're hoping e-books will become a mainstream item. Mainstream people aren't going to strip the ads out of an e-book, anymore than they'll rip out the ads in a magazine before they read it.

You want an ad method that will be acceptable... in other words, ignorable if desired. Grouping the ads at the front or back will do that. Putting an ad banner at the bottom of an occasional chapter will do that. Product placement will also do that.

I wouldn't assume that ads placed in e-books will necessarily all be incredibly grating, and I also think that people will get used to them in whatever form they take. How much do you complain these days about watching a show, and seeing an animated ad for the next show, or next week's movie, running along the bottom of the screen?

People learn to tolerate a lot, when they want to see a show... they will tolerate a lot when they want to read a book, too. Look at how much we tolerate right now, with different formats, different readers, DRM, DRM-stripping, reformatting, converting... all because we want to read e-books. Tolerating an ad or three to get a free e-book is a no-brainer.

Edit: Since I started releasing my novels in LRF, I haven't heard any complaints about the ads in the back of them (for other of my books). They are ignored by those who don't care, and checked out by others who might want to read my books... their choice. That's how to do it.

[JSWolf]

I do really dislike the adverts for other shows in the middle of watching whatever. And I really hate the faded logos. Whoever started that trend should be killed horribly and painfully. Like hung/drawn/quartered sounds really nice. Plus the network in question sould be forced out of business and all the assets given to the poor. And that means all the money the executives have in the bank as well.

You can't put an advert at the bottom of a page because you won't know the type size the reader will be using so the advert could end up anyplace on the page. Adverts at the end are fine. I can just close the book when I get there. At the beginning might not be too bad if I can get to the ToC ahead of the adverts. What I used to really hate was when books had adverts in the middle that caused to books to open to them because they were thicker paper then the main pages. Thankfully that's been done away with.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I do really dislike the adverts for other shows in the middle of watching whatever. And I really hate the faded logos. Whoever started that trend should be killed horribly and painfully. Like hung/drawn/quartered sounds really nice. Plus the network in question sould be forced out of business and all the assets given to the poor. And that means all the money the executives have in the bank as well.

Yes, but have you sworn off watching all shows or stations that use them? Most people (including myself) hate them as much as you, but we still watch.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

You can't put an advert at the bottom of a page because you won't know the type size the reader will be using so the advert could end up anyplace on the page. Adverts at the end are fine. I can just close the book when I get there. At the beginning might not be too bad if I can get to the ToC ahead of the adverts. What I used to really hate was when books had adverts in the middle that caused to books to open to them because they were thicker paper then the main pages. Thankfully that's been done away with.

All good points. I agree, grouped in the front or back is best. I wouldn't want to see a banner ad at the bottom (or top) of a chapter (not the end of a page, but literally the last thing you see at the end of a chapter before the next one), but with e-books' similarity to web pages, I can see that as being considered an option.

But if I were a publisher, and an advertiser wanted to do that, I would make sure they paid a premium price for it!

[Jadon]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

grouped in the front or back is best.

If I knew that the first twenty pages of a book were ads, I'd just hold the page-forward button down until I got to actual book. Ads only work if it's not trivial to skip over them. We read magazines with ads. We use software with ads. We view websites with ads. Books aren't holy and special. If they had ads between chapters or every few thousand words, we'd ignore them like most other ads, and advertisers could pretend they were as effective as all the other ads we ignore other places.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Well-said.

[HarryT]

Don't forget that all of Dickens' novels, for example, were originally published in weekly or monthly publications filled with ads. It used to be thought entirely normal to read novels in that way.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Yes... and before there were paperbacks there were the "pulps," cheap newsprint rags with original stories and ads sprinkled throughout. Those went in 2 directions, paperbacks, and story-based glossy magazines. (As I said earlier, it shows what people will get used to (put up with)... bad printing, ads, etc... to do something they want, namely, read books.

[rupescissa]

E-books are no more than a niche market even after a decade of promises and predictions that they are the future of publishing. Sure, we read them, but in the real world e-books have many limitaions and annoyances that militate against their acceptance by the reading public. We all know what the problems are (incompatible formats; quirky, limited-capability, high-priced hardware; general inability to annotate; DRM; prices on a par with those of printed books; publishers' antipathy). To add advertising to this stinking mess could only be thinkable to a publisher.

There is no reason to think that the reading public will allow itself to be imposed on by ads in books--and certainly not before the main barriers I mentioned are obviated.

In my opinion, there is no market analogous to the book market. The broadcast TV analogy doesn't work, because TV shows were not owned, reusable objects, and because TV's were reatively easy to operate, for anybody. The iPod was successful because it built on an already-existing practice of music downloading and an already-existing file format (MP3).

No similar structures are in place in the book market (and a large percentage of the people literate enought to buy and read printed books in any appreciable quantity--including those employed in the publishing industry--are at least mildly technophobic).

There are a lot of issues that need to be addressed workably, universally and permanently, before e-books gain serious acceptance.

My $0.02!

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Most of what you point out is true. However, it should not be forgotten that advertisers would add an additional voice to the mix, and it could be the voice of reason (or authority) that straightens out many of the problems you mentioned.

Yes, the publishing industry has created most of these problems, mainly by dragging their own feet. Advertisers, by virtue of offering them money, would be in a position of kicking their tails and getting them going on deciding on compatible software formats, more reliable software and hardware, promotion, and selling and distribution models. After all, why spend money on something that doesn't work? And when has advertising ever held their mouths about how business should be done, especially when they are bankrolling it? Take a look at the magazine industry, for example, and it's clear how much the advertising industry has shaped it.

Don't forget that, unlike publishers, advertisers always listen to the customers, to see what they like and don't like. If it's clear that customers want a particular format, sold (or given away) in a specific way, the advertisers will make every effort to give the customer that, so their ads will end up in their thankful hands.

Again, advertisers have an advantage here: They can create a new market for their ads to be seen, and therefore more revenue for themselves. It's worth their while to step in, even if they do need to handhold the publishers to do it.

[nekokami]

I think the closest parallel may be websites that are paid for by Google ads. I do see advertising as an interesting potential way to fund books. The trick would be to find a way to estimate "eyeballs" or the viewership audience, which is generally key to determining advertising rates and author/publisher compensation. TV in the US estimates this with viewership surveys. Newspapers and magazines publish their subscription and individual sales figures. Wowio does it by asking customers to subscribe to their site and only download their own books, not pass them around to others. Another idea would be to have a ping-back function in an ebook reader that would let the advertising service (e.g. Google Ads) know that the ad had been on the screen. Privacy concerns are likely to nix that one, but it would have the advantage of actually encouraging publishers to be sure their formats were open and easily transported, because they would want every work to be as widely distributed and viewed as possible.

I don't like television ads, to the point that yes, I actually have completely given up on commercial television, for over 10 years. But I tolerate print ads in magazines, etc., and in some magazines, I actually take time to read them, because they're relevant to the reason I'm reading the magazine, e.g. jewelry supply ads in my jewelry design magazines, or tech tool ads in MAKE.

When reading a fiction book, I wouldn't want anything to interrupt the flow of the story, but a banner or text ad at the end of a chapter would be fine, and if they advertised books or other works that I might like based on the current book, I think I'd even appreciate them.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by nekokami

The trick would be to find a way to estimate "eyeballs" or the viewership audience, which is generally key to determining advertising rates and author/publisher compensation.

Simply keeping track of downloads would accomplish that.

Originally Posted by nekokami

...it would have the advantage of actually encouraging publishers to be sure their formats were open and easily transported, because they would want every work to be as widely distributed and viewed as possible.

Give the girl a cheroot!

Originally Posted by nekokami

I don't like television ads, to the point that yes, I actually have completely given up on commercial television, for over 10 years. But I tolerate print ads in magazines, etc., and in some magazines, I actually take time to read them, because they're relevant to the reason I'm reading the magazine, e.g. jewelry supply ads in my jewelry design magazines, or tech tool ads in MAKE.

This is, of course, the key to successful advertising: Targeting. No one wants ads to things they don't want... but everyone will tolerate ads for things they do want. So, no, I don't want to find an ad for a Jaguar in an Indiana Jones novel... but I might like an ad for a Jeep. As well as an ad for the next movie, or a cool fedora hat.

Advertisers know this, and generally get pretty good at targeting ads to the audience, so that you don't go away mad, you go out and buy something.

[nekokami]

See, the difference between tracking downloads and having a ping-back system is that with the downloads, the publishers are still tempted to lock the books into DRM format, and limit access to "authorized" downloaders (Wowio is only available to US residents), whereas with a ping-back system, the publisher would be happy to let anyone forward content to anyone -- use peer-to-peer, newsgroups, IRC, post it on your website, email it to all your friends-- whatever, because the more widely the file is distributed, the more likely it would be to be viewed and hence generate advertising revenue.

I think the dotReader folks could implement this fairly easily, and it would fund their development/porting efforts so they could make their reader available on many more platforms, more quickly.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by nekokami

See, the difference between tracking downloads and having a ping-back system is that with the downloads, the publishers are still tempted to lock the books into DRM format, and limit access to "authorized" downloaders (Wowio is only available to US residents), whereas with a ping-back system, the publisher would be happy to let anyone forward content to anyone -- use peer-to-peer, newsgroups, IRC, post it on your website, email it to all your friends-- whatever, because the more widely the file is distributed, the more likely it would be to be viewed and hence generate advertising revenue.

Well, yes, if they wanted to be that anal about it, they could use a ping-back system and keep track of every time an e-book moved from place to place... but that would be tempting many more privacy issues. It might also be subject to being made inaccurate through hacking to remove the ping-back.

However, if they simply allow the downloads, they can base prices off of a simple-to-calculate download figure, and consider any additional distribution to be free icing on the cake. And if the advertising makes the e-book free, they are guaranteed the maximum likely downloads and additional distribution. The publisher doesn't have to concern themselves about where the book ended up (much harder to keep track of), because they've already been paid by the advertisers.

[nekokami]

Works for me, but I think a flowable format would work better. Maybe DE will save the day.

Publishers might prefer being able to charge the higher advertising rate, though. And again, I'd like to encourage them to keep the format as open and supported as possible, which would work better if they can charge more for files that people willingly pass around.

[Liviu_5]

With all due respect, I do not see an ad model for e-books as viable as long as the ads are embedded in the books. The money are not there for that.

I bought quite a few ebooks, mostly magazines like Aeon, Asimov's, SFF, but also author collections of short stories, which have quite a few ads in them, and actually some of those adds made me buy more ebooks since they were ads for some of these collections by authors appearing in the respective issue, or by similar authors. But the market for such is quite limited and incidentally all those ebooks were not free, reasonably priced with no drm yes, but not free.

Wovio is just a publicity stunt in my opinion and is going to stay limited at a few titles here and there, but as a model for large scale ebook selling I think it is DOA.