DRM confusion

[BWhite]

Originally Posted by speedlever

So by this, I would infer that I could legally use Calibre to strip DRM from library ebooks to read on the K3? But just not strip DRM from purchased books? (why would I want to?)

I buy books. A lot of them, and I like to own the books I purchase. By that statement I mean that I want to be able to read the book on whatever device I want.

-Helene Klungvik

Her name is unique enough that you can Google her easily. There is her answer to your question.

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by Falcao

Not me. I got most of my e-books from Amazon, then I liberate them and read them in my Sony. Just the best of two worlds

I made the attempt on some Amazon freebies I'd downloaded in the past to Kindle for PC. Five of the 25 files were Topaz, and I'm beyond my depth there. I don't want to be stuck with something I can't convert.

But, really, the main thing is, why should I bother to jump through hoops with Amazon when they clearly don't want my e-book business and I can just buy from B&N, Borders, or Kobo instead?

[wvcherrybomb]

Originally Posted by BWhite

I buy books. A lot of them, and I like to own the books I purchase. By that statement I mean that I want to be able to read the book on whatever device I want.

-Helene Klungvik

Her name is unique enough that you can Google her easily. There is her answer to your question.

Thank you for your answer to this question. This is something I have been trying to figure out since I found this forum. Now I understand both the "why" and the "how".

[Falcao]

Originally Posted by Catlady

I made the attempt on some Amazon freebies I'd downloaded in the past to Kindle for PC. Five of the 25 files were Topaz, and I'm beyond my depth there. I don't want to be stuck with something I can't convert.

But, really, the main thing is, why should I bother to jump through hoops with Amazon when they clearly don't want my e-book business and I can just buy from B&N, Borders, or Kobo instead?

Yes, topaz is a botheration.

I do hoops with Amazon because others (BN, Borders, Sony) don't want my business due to geo-restrictions.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by Falcao

Really?

Last time I checked, USA laws don't apply outside there.

It wasn't just America that they bought laws in. The UK has a new law that says you are presumed guilty of copyright violation as soon as you are accused of it. That part of the law was written by the BPI (I think the American equivalent is the RIAA -- conglomerate of music publishers).

[SensualPoet]

Originally Posted by paolamanzini

To me, it does not make sense, and if you have rightfully purchased the book, you should have the right to read it wherever you like.

This argument is a red herring. If you buy a Blu-ray disc and it doesn't play on your Toshiba VHS player, will you blame Sony for promoting the Blu-ray format and think you should have a right to play this file on any device of your choosing? Amazon is selling you an e-book to play on Kindle-enalbed devices. You do not have a right to run around and demand it ought to play on something else. And to be "morally absolved" from ignoring the terms and conditions of the original sale.

Originally Posted by Penforhire

If Amazon would embrace Epub I would declare it the clear winner. Unfortunately they might have the legs (market share) to hold out a long time and continue muddying the format waters. I understand why, anything to help lock users into one store.

If Amazon allows DRM ePubs to be played back on Kindles, it can also continue to exclusively offer Kindle-formatted ebooks — that is, never sell a single ePub, just allow playback on its devices. That would keep the customer selling proposition simple: buy from Amazon, you can be guaranteed a Kindle experience. But, as a customer service, a Kindle also supports DRM ePub files acquired elsewhere, such as borrowed from the library. Under those circumstances, do you still believe ePub would be declared "the clear winner"? Be careful what you ask for!

Originally Posted by Catlady

They're locking in customers, but they're also locking out customers. Now that I've bought a non-Kindle, they don't want my business anymore.

You can buy Amazon Kindle DRM format books without owning a Kindle and enjoy them on several platforms including an iPad, smartphone or your PC. (Amazon notes 20% of its Kindle ebook sales are to customers who do not own a Kindle; they are using free Kindle apps to read the content.) If you own a Kindle, you can still buy DRM ePubs and enjoy those on an iPad, smartphone or your PC. No one is locked in to anything. What Amazon provides is a seamless, easy way to acquire a library of content with the assurance it plays on many devices. That's exactly the same as several ePub players; Amazon just executes the whole thing better ... resulting in it being the leading vendor.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

ePub has won. More devices, libraries, & more shops selling.

With a small footnote: fewer total customers, less revenue, less profit and lower unit sales. And all that fragmented over several companies. It's an odd definition of "won".

Originally Posted by speedlever

So by this, I would infer that I could legally use Calibre to strip DRM from library ebooks to read on the K3? But just not strip DRM from purchased books? (why would I want to?)

No, Calibre does not strip DRM. You have to find other tools to do that and, while it is relatively easy once you know how, it is FAR beyond the means of the average consumer who would never bother to go through all these hoops. And that ease of use is EXACTLY what the Amazon value proposition is built on and why it is the indsutry leader, despite arriving in the market a year after Sony.

Originally Posted by speedlever

Thus far I've checked into a few titles that my daughter has bought and read (paperbacks) and the ebook price may be $1 less than the paperback. Yikes. That's not exactly encouraging either. Also, some of it is available from the library and some is not.

Check again. Ebooks are typically much cheaper than the average same title paperback in a bricks and mortar store. You will find paperbacks sold online closer in price to ebooks -- but not real books sold in real stores.

As for libraries, most have a tiny number of ebooks -- a few thousand if you are lucky -- vs a well stocked book shop which has tens of thousands of current books. The kicker is that ebooks now are offered in the hundreds of thousands of commercial titles (not public domain out of copyright stuff to push up the stats) and those can be bought instantly and delivered instantly and almost all of them less than the paper edition which might take days or weeks to arrive.

Originally Posted by BWhite

Kobobooks sells books with DRM, just not Amazon's DRM. Will you be able to read Kobo DRM books in 20 years when Kobo no longer exists? I have no idea. Will you be able to read Kobo DRM books in 60 years when Adobe no longer exists? I have no idea.

Calibre does not automatically strip off DRM, it has to be set up to do so. So just downloading Calibre will not do it for you. You have to do more research, using Google.

Kobobooks relies on Adobe ADE technology which is the same as Sony's model (and Waterstones, and W H Smith, and Borders, etc). Provided the Adobe model is running / migrated to something new, your books are protected. AND, they work now when you buy them. I really don't care if the DRM works in 60 years; if I happen still to be around, I am sure something will be available to allow me to read them. And would I care if they didn't? I only own about 10% of the books I owned as a teenager; the rest are already "gone", DRM or not.

To underscore, Calibre does not strip DRM, automatically or otherwise, and cannot be set-up to do so. Calibre migrates one format to another AFTER any pre-existing DRM is removed by the user with different tools.

Originally Posted by Catlady

I made the attempt [to liberate] some Amazon freebies I'd downloaded in the past to Kindle for PC. Five of the 25 files were Topaz, and I'm beyond my depth there. I don't want to be stuck with something I can't convert.

But, really, the main thing is, why should I bother to jump through hoops with Amazon when they clearly don't want my e-book business and I can just buy from B&N, Borders, or Kobo instead?

So, you are complaining about DRM, and how awkward it is to break the DRM, on something you didn't pay 1¢ for and that can STILL be enjoyed, free, on a PC, a Mac, an iPad, an Android device, a Blackberry ... not a single hoop needed. Here's some simple advice: acquire content for the platform that works for you.

Originally Posted by Falcao

Yes, topaz is a botheration.

Advice ditto (acquire content for the platform that works for you).

[Falcao]

Originally Posted by SensualPoet

This argument is a red herring. If you buy a Blu-ray disc and it doesn't play on your Toshiba VHS player, will you blame Sony for promoting the Blu-ray format and think you should have a right to play this file on any device of your choosing?

I'm not demanding that, just the ability to copy and "play" the book in different devices. When I buy a music CD, I can copy the songs and play them in my laptop and cell phone. I want to do the same with e-books.

[Ken Maltby]

It seems to me that Amazon is not interested in applying Topaz to books that they
really expect to sell, in large numbers. All my purchases have not presented any problem
removing the infection from the file. I have the suspicion that they notice a drop off in
sales or an increase in returns/demands for replacement of files that "don't work" or are
"damaged", when Topaz is applied.

Just a thought.

Luck;
Ken

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by SensualPoet

This argument is a red herring. If you buy a Blu-ray disc and it doesn't play on your Toshiba VHS player, will you blame Sony for promoting the Blu-ray format and think you should have a right to play this file on any device of your choosing? Amazon is selling you an e-book to play on Kindle-enalbed devices. You do not have a right to run around and demand it ought to play on something else. And to be "morally absolved" from ignoring the terms and conditions of the original sale.

If I buy a Sony Pictures movie on a Blu-ray disc, I expect it to play in my Toshiba Blu-ray player, not just on a Sony. I expect it to play if I've bought it from Best Buy or Amazon or if I've borrowed it from the library.

Originally Posted by SensualPoet

So, you are complaining about DRM, and how awkward it is to break the DRM, on something you didn't pay 1¢ for and that can STILL be enjoyed, free, on a PC, a Mac, an iPad, an Android device, a Blackberry ... not a single hoop needed. Here's some simple advice: acquire content for the platform that works for you.

The reason that I tried to convert the free books was to test whether I could still shop at Amazon for e-books. I've decided that I'm not willing to risk throwing away money for books I won't be able to read on my reader.

All I know is that I used to be a loyal Amazon customer. But no more. I don't like companies that try to limit my future choices. (No Apple for me either.)

[SensualPoet]

Originally Posted by Catlady

The reason that I tried to convert the free books was to test whether I could still shop at Amazon for e-books. I've decided that I'm not willing to risk throwing away money for books I won't be able to read on my reader.

I'm just saying you know in advance that Amazon ebooks mainly have DRM and are designed to be used on many devices (all of them free apps) ... just not the handheld ereader you own and enjoy that runs ePub. So, by all means look elsewhere.

I thoroughly enjoy my Kobo and use it for content on sale at Kobo, not for sale at Amazon or library books. I get great value from it. But I do prefer the Amazon bookstore by a long shot, and the Kindle 3 far outclasses the Kobo in its current iteration.

[speedlever]

I have to say that this has been very educational... and very confusing... all at the same time. Thanks for the information on Calibre.

First, the obvious solution to this whole debacle is rather simple: buy a Kindle and buy a Nook (or equivalent). It may not be the cheapest solution, but it certainly deals with the DRM issue.

Secondly, regarding the price of ebooks vs paperbacks, I'll give a couple of examples that I referred to earlier.

B&N paperback: (earlier today there was no sale)


B&N Nook:


Amazon.com book and Kindle (option below the paperback):

[speedlever]

Originally Posted by BWhite

snip

Here is the problem:
a) are you talking about getting ebooks for your daughter to get her through the next couple of years
or
b) since daughters tend to grow up are you talking about setting up a digital library she can take with her when she is twenty?

b) is a big deal, and will probably stretch your and our patience!

Hah! I've been having enough trouble just trying to understand the game. And now you want me to plan ahead? Heh!

I don't expect we'll be talking about the same issues when she's 20, do you?

[Fbone]

And if you have a Border's nearby, you can receive 33% off with coupon on the $6.99 paperback bringing you down to $4.83.

[BWhite]

Originally Posted by SensualPoet

I really don't care if the DRM works in 60 years; if I happen still to be around, I am sure something will be available to allow me to read them. And would I care if they didn't? I only own about 10% of the books I owned as a teenager; the rest are already "gone", DRM or not.

That's you though, and not us, and besides it is also false logic. If those had been non-DRM books you had owned as a teenager, which meant that moving them would be nothing like moving the 80 pounds of physical books they probably were, you would probably still own 90% plus of all your eBooks.

I've been there, having moved across the continent twice, so I know you likely got rid of those books because they were physical, and inconvenient to house and/or move; NOT because they were taking up slots in a digital library.

If you were reading trash almost exclusively as a teenager, then of course I am totally off-base and I apologize. In that case you would have still tossed them I am sure.

[astra]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

This is more like DVD vs BluRay with Mobipocket/AZW being DVD and ePub being BluRay.

The reason we have format wars is because Jeff Bezos wants control of the content on the Kindle. If he was to allow ePub, he'd have to give up some of this control. So he sticks with AZW/Topaz. It is not a format war. It's a control issue. ePub has already won the format wars.

I agree with everything except the last sentence.
There was a moment when everybody thought that mobi is de facto and where it is at the moment? Amazon is leading as far as I can see. By distributing free applications for all sort of mobile gadgets they win the market, the majority. The majority have no clue/don't give a fig about compatibility, DRM etc. All they care is convenience. If you can get a book with a few clicks of a mouse start reading a book, then come, home switch on another device that will automatically synchronise with the other one where you started to read the book and open the book on the same page where you left off....it sounds like a dream.

P.S. I would go for it if it had Sony's h/w.