Is this a horrible time to be a writer?

[pricecw]

Actually, I think people will generally pay a fair price for their entertainment, if and only if, it is easy to do, and they are treated fairly.

As soon as it is easier not to, you have lost a lot of people. Encumber the works so people think the author/publisher/whatnot is out to cheat them, they will start to take more, and won't care.

Once you loose that battle (as a industry, not individually), you have lost the respect of consumers, and they will start to think you deserve to be ripped off. I think the Music and Movie groups have crossed this point. Most consumers think they are evil, and going overboard, and they don't look down on those that take the work. They still have the benefit that most people frown on other corps doing the same, but I think that is bound to change too.

As an Author/publisher, once you start treating your fans as criminals, they will stop being fans, and start being adversaries, once that happens, you have lost completely.

To the OP, you have stated many times why you aren't more successful in this thread. And it has nothing to do with pirating or your books being on a torrent. You don't advertise, you have stated your presence is here alone (small community, small readership), you don't know how to market.

As an example, I have read Sci-Fi/Fantasy my whole life. Enjoy it, but I didn't know you, and I have been on here for a while, and on the internet for much longer than there was a www (remember watching the birth of the www). Further, and this is me and my opinion, when I went to your site, nothing struck me to even want to put in my TBR pile. Some of the books might be good, but for me the cover art and descriptions are not nearly enough to draw me to spend money on the books.

To continue the example, look at the Kestral series, the Covers would have me pass in a bookstore, never to even pick it up to read the blurbs. Online, I am there, so I might read the blurb (by being electronic, you have already made it further than you would have in a traditional setting). So you have less than 85 words on your site, trying to convince me to spend money. Although slightly intrigued, there is no way I would spend money on this little bit of info. In a past world, I would get the first of a series that might intrigue me from the library, and see if it is worth my time & money (time being more valuable than the cost, but cost playing in).

Now, let's run another example of an author I found recently, Randolph Lalonde. I also first heard about him from a post here, and went and looked at the books he had to offer. I picked up his Omnibus for free from smashwords, and put it on my TBR pile, and started it while riding the exercise bike in the mornings. He hooked me, and before the end of that omnibus, I had purchased the next 5 books in the series, and I am eagerly waiting for the rest of them to be published. His price was right, and I could see if I liked the series and author before spending much money. His cover artwork is also very good and attractive, which helps draw consumers. I didn't even think of searching for a torrent.

--Carl

[Worldwalker]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Nah. I'm on vacation. Otherwise, I'd give you links to any number of experiments that back me up.

Of course, those are experiments, carried out in controlled conditions.

And the Reader's Digest wallet experiment was rather less scientific, I suppose, but carried out with real people in real conditions. They left wallets lying around and secretly watched to see what happened to them. A few years later, they did the same thing with cell phones.

In most cities ... nearly every wallet and phone was returned.

It's been replicated by various experimenters in various different ways, and it's always come out the same: most people are honest.

We tend to see ourselves in others. Honest people expect other people to be honest, and vise versa. So is fear of prosecution the only thing keeping you from stealing? Or from downloading unauthorized copies of books, movies, music, whatever? If not, then why do you expect worse of other people?

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by Worldwalker

We tend to see ourselves in others. Honest people expect other people to be honest, and vise versa. So is fear of prosecution the only thing keeping you from stealing? Or from downloading unauthorized copies of books, movies, music, whatever? If not, then why do you expect worse of other people?

This site, and many others like it, are replete with members who willingly download books and music from torrents and other sites, and use as their reasoning the belief that no one will be able to stop them... that's the way it is, so it's okay, QED, "get used to it."

I'm not saying everyone is this way... but it is a major proportion of our society, and it must be dealt with. That's why we have laws, and law enforcement agencies... there's no point in acting like it's not there.

[jgaiser]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

I'm not saying everyone is this way... but it is a major proportion of our society, and it must be dealt with. That's why we have laws, and law enforcement agencies... there's no point in acting like it's not there.

Whoa...! I'm going to have to call you on this.

I think you would be hard pressed to provide documentation that the major proportion of our society are crooked. Sorry.. Don't believe it..

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by jgaiser

Whoa...! I'm going to have to call you on this.

I think you would be hard pressed to provide documentation that the major proportion of our society are crooked. Sorry.. Don't believe it..

That's your opinion. The opinions of our law enforcement officials might be different. And I'm pretty sure you couldn't provide documentation of how smoothly society would run without laws or law enforcement agencies.

At any rate, it was just an observation that we can move along from now.

[jgaiser]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

That's your opinion. The opinions of our law enforcement officials might be different. And I'm pretty sure you couldn't provide documentation of how smoothly society would run without laws or law enforcement agencies.

At any rate, it was just an observation that we can move along from now.

Sorry Steve, but saying it's so doesn't make it such.

We're not talking about running a society without laws. Making a statement that the majority of society is crooked requires proof. I have no need to prove the negative.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by jgaiser

Sorry Steve, but saying it's so doesn't make it such.

We're not talking about running a society without laws. Making a statement that the majority of society is crooked requires proof. I have no need to prove the negative.

Really?

The mere existence of laws and law enforcement agencies is the proof. Or did you think they were there to give doughnut makers a group of customers?

(Sorry, law enforcement guys and gals.)

[Iphinome]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Really?

The mere existence of laws and law enforcement agencies is the proof. Or did you think they were there to give doughnut makers a group of customers?

(Sorry, law enforcement guys and gals.)

You're suggesting that if only a minority of society are crooked then we'll have no more need for laws?

[Worldwalker]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

And I'm pretty sure you couldn't provide documentation of how smoothly society would run without laws or law enforcement agencies.

This is the kind of thing you've been doing throughout this entire discussion: putting utterly ridiculous words in someone's mouth, and then demolishing the straw man you've created.

Nobody has said anything about a society without laws or law enforcement agencies. Nobody. None.

Nor is the existence of either one the proof you say it is of your claim that the majority of people are dishonest.

Let's take this to a simpler, less dramatic level: A book club. A nice, friendly, cozy group of people ... six of them, let's say ... who get together once a week to talk about their chosen book. Five out of those six people -- Al, Betty, Carl, Diane, and Ed -- are careful to never take more than their allotted share of time when their turn comes to talk. The sixth one, Fran, just keeps talking and talking and talking and talking. To keep things fair, the group makes a rule that you get five minutes to talk, which Al will time, and then it's the next person's turn. So our cozy book club now has a law (five minute presentations) and a law enforcement agency (Al and his watch). The fact that the club made a rule to limit people's turns, and appointed one member to enforce it, doesn't mean that the majority of members were talking too long; just that at least one person (exactly one person, in this case, namely Fran) was doing so.

Likewise, the existence of laws and agencies to enforce them gives no evidence as to whether 1%, 50%, or 99% of people are dishonest. If there is even one solitary crook in a town of a thousand people, you need someone to stop him. It just shows that more than 0% of people are dishonest. And we already knew that.

You're dodging the question. Nobody has said that all people are honest. Nobody has said that laws are not necessary. Nobody, going back a few pages to one of your first responses to me, has advocated anarchy. The only point you need to prove is that the majority of people are dishonest, and so far, no proof has been forthcoming.

[Marcy]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

This site, and many others like it, are replete with members who willingly download books and music from torrents and other sites, and use as their reasoning the belief that no one will be able to stop them... that's the way it is, so it's okay, QED, "get used to it."

I'm not saying everyone is this way... but it is a major proportion of our society, and it must be dealt with. That's why we have laws, and law enforcement agencies... there's no point in acting like it's not there.

Oh please. I download torrents because otherwise I can't get hold of the books at any price. If I can buy a book, I will. I will freely admit to having downloaded Jean Auel's books, all of Robert Heinlein's works not available for purchase, the Cadfael books and some miscellaneous other things I wanted e-copies to replace my p-copies, but weren't available.

The way to get me off the darknet is to make these books available legitimately and at a reasonable price. My definition of a reasonable price is the same price as the cheapest pbook version available.

Your attitude towards your readers makes me sorry that I purchased all your books. I just checked and I have 9 of them on my Fictionwise bookshelf. I also checked my torrent program and discovered all your books are sitting in a torrent I already had downloaded to get the E.E. "Doc" Smith Lensman series. I had only checked off the Smith books to download, but a quick change of your priority from "skip" to "normal" got me all the books in under 5 minutes. Did that cause me to not buy your books? No. But treating me like a thief pisses me off and puts me off purchasing any future books.

-Marcy

[Joebill]

Hmm... After 30 years of searching, I found the Von Vogt books I was looking for in a used book store. Ebooks weren't available back then. The ones I wanted, he wrote back in the 1950s. They weren't his Weapon Shops stories.

Used book stores were simply the only way to find them. They originally were 95 cents to $1.25 each. I paid at least 3 dollars each for them.

If they had been available as cheap ebook downloads, I would have bought them that way.

But publishers don't think there is a market, when in fact there is one.

I have never been to the darknet, and I doubt I ever will.

Publishers have to realize there is a market for books they wont reprint. They shouldn't act surprised when anyone tries to find good books and stories from past decades.

[Joebill]

Interesting discussuion, I suppose, about laws.

There have been a number of laws in many nations that were completely unethical and down right bad. Like slavery or placing people into ghettos and walling them in except for a few entrances.

As for books and movies that are in copyright and being downloaded, I can see why it bothers publishers and authors. I angsted about it for years.

I'll write books anyway, eventually, without worry.

[tyche]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

I'll definitely have to check out The Friday Challenge... before this thread, I'd never heard of it!

And before this thread, I never heard of you or your books! Something to keep in mind.

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by Marcy

Oh please. I download torrents because otherwise I can't get hold of the books at any price. If I can buy a book, I will. I will freely admit to having downloaded Jean Auel's books, all of Robert Heinlein's works not available for purchase, the Cadfael books and some miscellaneous other things I wanted e-copies to replace my p-copies, but weren't available.

The way to get me off the darknet is to make these books available legitimately and at a reasonable price. My definition of a reasonable price is the same price as the cheapest pbook version available.

Your attitude towards your readers makes me sorry that I purchased all your books. I just checked and I have 9 of them on my Fictionwise bookshelf. I also checked my torrent program and discovered all your books are sitting in a torrent I already had downloaded to get the E.E. "Doc" Smith Lensman series. I had only checked off the Smith books to download, but a quick change of your priority from "skip" to "normal" got me all the books in under 5 minutes. Did that cause me to not buy your books? No. But treating me like a thief pisses me off and puts me off purchasing any future books.

-Marcy

5 and 1/2 years until E.E.Smith's work (those released in his lifetime) are P.D. in Canada,,,, (All the Lensman books, Skylarks, among others.)

[Greg Anos]

I will note that E.E.Smith did all his creative works as a spare time hobby while he was employed as a research chemist/executive, or after he was retired. By his own account, he made less money for more work (by the 1950's) that he would have made being a bricklayer. (He had done both!) yet, he created Space Opera, and once paperback became popular, he was in print continuously for nearly 40 years, and sporadically thereafter.

So Steve, what's your beef?