With this attitude, is it any wonder new authors don't trust the system?

[MaggieScratch]

Steve--manuscript display sites have been tried before, and have failed spectacularly.

The thing about publishing, it seems a system rife with inefficiencies and ripe for improvements, and every time someone comes up with something that seems like a simple idea that SHOULD work, it never does. As Byzantine and screwy as the current system is, it succeeds at its goal: get books into the hands of readers.

Whether ebooks will have a large effect on that system remains to be seen, or at least how it will affect the system.

[neilmarr]

Hya Steve: I read your last post carefully (twice) and, sound as your initiative seems to be on the surface, I must instist that no legitimate agent or publisher will give it a second glance ... only vanity press under whatever name it chooses to apply. It cannot and it will not work.

On top of the 'real' work, I read at least ten unsolicited submissions a day. And I'm a wee fish in a great big pond. When I decide to down tools, do you really believe I'm going to trawl for more hit-and-miss stuff on some online posting site? No bloody way. After fourteen or sixteen hours I'm more interested in a nighcap and sleep.

What you are proposing here is fine in principle. In practice, it doesn't stand a snowball in hell's chance of atracting serious attention. I agree -- that's a darned shame. But all you would be doing is providing a target-specific market for cowboys who want to cash in on the authors themselves.

Gosh, Steve; please don't think of this response as criticism of a noble idea. It is merely realistic.

And I'll tell you summat: I opened a similar site to that you propose in 1999. It was called the BeWrite Community. It attracted over 3,000 writers and ran for over five years. The idea was to offer, freely' professionally edited work in specific genres (similar to your idea?) in the hope of attracting agents and publishers (either spontaneously or who we regularly and individually pitched).

We ended up with around six million perfectly presented words. Know how many we sold? Not a single one! That's why we opened BeWrite Books as a publishing house to give our guys the break they deserved. We were floggin' the dead donkey even twelve years ago.

Busy folks do not need someone else's slush pile. They're already presented with the best without asking ... and 98% of even those submissions are for the can.

Cheers. Neil

Very best wishes. Neil

[NickSpalding]

Somebody with more time, patience, acumen and smarts than me should sit down and work out the mathematical formula for your chances of having a book published if you submit it to agents and publishers.

It would probably show that you're more likely to get sexually molested by aliens from the planet Gorp.

I might write a novel about an unpublished author who takes an entire building of agents hostage, threatening to cut out their giblets if they don't immediately publish his 265,000 word epic about nostril hair.

I'll call it 'The Sword Is Mightier Than The Pen, Actually.'

It'll be a smash hit.

[BexBits]

Originally Posted by NickSpalding

It would probably show that you're more likely to get sexually molested by aliens from the planet Gorp.

[Steven Lake]

Originally Posted by NickSpalding

Somebody with more time, patience, acumen and smarts than me should sit down and work out the mathematical formula for your chances of having a book published if you submit it to agents and publishers,

So in short, unless you're already published (be it self, POD, or PTP) and well known, plus successful, your chances of getting picked up are nearly zero. Kinda like your chances of winning the lottery. Ya know, I wonder if publishers put that disclaimer on their submission process (IE, you have a 1 in 10 million chance of being accepted!) if it would automatically remove all the dead weight.

No, wait. All the dead weight would remain because they wouldn't realize they were just chaff in the wind. Oh well, nevermind. Of course, if someone could create a system that would pre-filter the really bad manuscripts (I've had to edit plenty myself, so I know the drill), the publishers wouldn't have such a huge slush file either. lol. Of course, that's wishful thinking. heh.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by Steven Lake

No, wait. All the dead weight would remain because they wouldn't realize they were just chaff in the wind. Oh well, nevermind. Of course, if someone could create a system that would pre-filter the really bad manuscripts (I've had to edit plenty myself, so I know the drill), the publishers wouldn't have such a huge slush file either. lol. Of course, that's wishful thinking. heh.

But pubishers use such a system nowadays since they only accepts submissions from agents.

[ficbot]

Originally Posted by Steven Lake

So in short, unless you're already published (be it self, POD, or PTP) and well known, plus successful, your chances of getting picked up are nearly zero.

But hasn't it always been this way? I just read some Stephen King short story collections, and he talks in the intros about spending years working as an English teacher while publishing short stories in lad magazines. He had several years of cred as a story writer who had been paid to publish, before he even attempted a novel. And Grisham's big gimmick was that he really was a lawyer, and Robin Cook was really a doctor...none of these were overnight successes. Margaret Atwood, who is better known for her novels now, got her first break by publishing a poetry collection. At the time, practically nobody in Canada was publishing major poetry at all, so she was pretty much the only game in town come award season, and immediately won a Governor General's Award. Then she had cred for other things.

I wonder if some people just have too much of an instant gratification mindset where they write what they think is a great novel and expect just to publish it, be discovered and have Harry Potter-ish levels of success. They don't do their research, they don't pay their dues. You would be amazed at how many people I went to journalism school with who thought they would literally graduate and be an anchor on CNN. It doesn't work that way. Or the people I used to meet at fitness conferences who were going to make it big starring in an exercise video, and my first question would be 'have you been to videofitness.com' (like Mobile Read, but for exercise video fans) and they would say no, or 'have you read the blog of So and So' (huge star in exercise video world) and they would say no. They had not even done the most minimum of research to know the market a little and they were surprised they hadn't made it big yet!

If this is a hobby, then fine, write the novel for your own satisfaction and make it big or not. But if this is a *job* then it has to be treated that way imho, and that means knowing the market, writing to it and knowing who the players are and how to attract their attention. That might involve going through an agent. It might involve getting street cred via a blog (I have seen tons of books which began this way) or via publication in some other venue. There *are* ways in. There always have been. But I do think it is a bit naive (and always has been) to just expect that your work is good and will be discovered somehow and fame/fortune will ensue.

[Steven Lake]

I wonder if some people just have too much of an instant gratification mindset where they write what they think is a great novel and expect just to publish it, be discovered and have Harry Potter-ish levels of success.

Exactly!! Too many writers are in it for the instant gratification and the so called "bragging rights" to say they're an author. Big whoop. My cat could be an author, but that doesn't mean he'd be a *good* author. But alas, too many people these days have the wrong picture of reality. The old adage, "Don't quit your day job" really applies to a lot of people these days, regardless of what they think they can do and can't.

It's like the exercise thing you mentioned. I heard a story of one guy who went out for the Boston Marathon. When asked about his participation, he said, "I'm gonna win it!" to which he was asked, "How much training have you done?" He replied, "None, cause I don't need it." Needless to say, they were hauling him away in an ambulance a couple miles later.

Writing is sorta that same thing, and there's far too many people who don't realize that. I hate to rag on other authors, because I don't want to discourage people. But reality is cruel, and sometimes people need to hear things like this in order to help them realize if what they're about to attempt is really for them. Also, there's three things that any good aspiring author needs to have.

1. An unquestioned love of writing. If you can't see yourself doing this for the rest of your life, even if you never earn a dime from it, then you shouldn't be writing.

2. A willingness to work hard. It took me 15+ years of constant writing, learning, improving, and experimenting before I was able to get to a level that I consider "satisfactory." Even if others rave about it, my opinion of my own writing is that it "still needs improvement". If I ever lose that opinion of my writing, then I need to hang it up because I've lost the one thing that helps me be a good writer, and that's an honest perspective. Because if you ever think your writing is great, then you've crossed over that imaginary boundary and are on the wrong side of success.

3. Never shoot for fame and/or fortune. Shoot for being the best you can be, and never give up on that goal ever. If you're truly good, fame and fortune will find you. If it doesn't you have a long ways to go. And even if it does, you're still not there yet.

IE, in short, keep a realistic view of everything, and never give up trying to make yourself better. Sadly, there's far too many who won't do that. Having started working for my publisher doing ebooks and web development, I've had a rather interesting inside view of the publishing world that I otherwise wouldn't have gotten. And let me tell you, there's a LOT of unrealistic people out there publishing vanity books. They have no other reason to publish except A) to boost their own self esteem (ie, look, I'm a published author!), or B) they go in thinking that simply by publishing a book, hollywood will suddenly beat a path to their door and they will become world famous overnight.

To say that I've learned a lot about the publishing world since August when I started into this adventure is an understatement. It's far, far more than I learned in the 5+ years as a tech editor. It's like when I went into Culinary. I to this day will never see a restaurant the same way ever again. The same goes with publishing. The golden arches that everyone sees on the outside quickly becomes the greasy burger on the inside.

And don't worry ficbot, I'm not disagreeing with what you say. In fact, I fully agree with you, and am simply releasing a few pet peeves I've built up over time in hopes that my thoughts will help others either get better, or realize that they don't belong, the latter reason providing relief to both editors and readers alike by removing bad books and bad authors from circulation.

[Redfox]

Originally Posted by neilmarr

Agreed, Redfox. But it's important to distinguish between a good and respected agent and some of those so-called 'literary agencies' popping up by the minute on the net.

Absolutely. Don't worry, I've been building up my industry knowledge for the past decade - but not everyone here is as well-informed, so your advice is very welcome.

As for one's chances being zero, guys - there's more to it than statistics. When you buy a lottery ticket, it really is pure chance, but when it comes to writing, you have much more control. Another thing I hear a lot from published writers, editors, etc, is that if you stick at it, you will get published. The problem is that apart from a few rare geniuses, it takes time to develop your writing skills to a professional level. You don't expect to play to a packed audience at the Albert Hall after passing your Grade 1 piano exam - why should you expect to be paid thousands of pounds/dollars for your very first attempt at a novel???

99% of wannabe writers just don't have the cojones to slave away year after year, improving their craft. Yes, there's still an element of luck after that point, but by choosing to be in that committed 1%, you increase your odds way above random.

[neilmarr]

Some fascinating, thought-provoking posts appearing here, chaps. Thanks for the insight and the fun.

A wee tale for you: Up top of the list of the most successful authors in Europe (also well known in the US and elsewhere) are Val McDermid and Phil Rickman, two of my oldest pals.

Both came up with me, from forty-some years ago, as journalists on local and national newspapers. Both wrote literally dozens of novels during these years before cracking it.

And -- huge talent apart -- both are tough guys with thick skins, infinite perserverance, patience and optimism. Both still work their boots off at writing and promotion.

These qualities were not developed in the hard-knock world of tab journalism, they tell me, but in the even tougher world of fiction writing.

Cheers. Neil

[Fred Zackel]

What I've learned:

There are many employees who can say no. There might be only one who can say yes.

But how to reach that person?

Editors call what they do "filtering." That means saying no.

(Sing with me ...)

You say you want a re -- vo -- lu ---tion!! ...

[Steven Lake]

Agreed Neilmarr. If you don't have a spirit of perseverance and a thick skin, you'll wither and die as an author. My way of approaching the trials and travails of getting published is to apply the more lasse-faire approach. IE, I'm doing what I love and would be thrilled to get published, but if I don't, then I'll be alright with that. I won't let rejections crush me. I'll just keep working and getting better while doing something I love and eventually I will get picked up by a big house, or published by someone important. For now it's small house PTP, but in time it might be big house publishing.

[neilmarr]

That's a healthy attitude, Steve. As for shy writers withering on the vine, sadly you're right. I say 'sadly' because there's no way of knowing what stunning work these folks may have waiting (in vain) for someone to accidentally stumble across. There's a lot of heartache in this job: dashed hope, crushed ego, frustration and damnation. Maybe that's what it's all about. We're chasing dreams, after all; in my case other people's, but that's OK. Cheers. Neil

[jimhanas]

Originally Posted by NickSpalding

I might write a novel about an unpublished author who takes an entire building of agents hostage, threatening to cut out their giblets if they don't immediately publish his 265,000 word epic about nostril hair.

Nick,

This actually reminds me of a story from my friend Brian Joseph Davis's most recent collection, in which unsatisfied customers take a print-on-demand publisher hostage. Short but hilarious -- and oddly moving. You can read it here.

[Worldwalker]

I may have to buy the book. That is the best framing device I've seen in a long time. Also, sitting here in front of a fan in shorts and tank top that don't match, I have a bad feeling I resemble those people.