Fan-fiction - Why?

[khalleron]

Seven Samurai is on Hulu Plus as part of the Criterion Collection.

I always said I would never pay for Hulu, but this has me severely tempted.

You can get a 7-day free trial though, if you're willing to give them your credit card info.

[citac]

Originally Posted by khalleron

Seven Samurai is on Hulu Plus as part of the Criterion Collection.

I always said I would never pay for Hulu, but this has me severely tempted.

You can get a 7-day free trial though, if you're willing to give them your credit card info.

See what it says below my username? Geographically restricted. I can't access Hulu (and many other things) because I don't live in the right country.

[Penforhire]

The anime is a bizzare mixture of traditional samurai, steam punk, and more advanced SF wrapped around the theme of Seven Samurai. The plot itself is more original and the result was entertaining, to me.

[marshies]

Originally Posted by cklls

I'm another HP fanfiction aficionado and author. I'm not a teenager and haven't been for better than thirty years. I've found total drivel and sheer brilliance in HP fanfiction, though most of it is found in places other than fanfiction.net. (Try Hawthorn and Vine on LiveJournal.) While it's rare, I've found some fanfiction that has rivaled, and in a few exceptional cases outpaced, the work of the original author.

I started reading fanfiction in the mid-90's for pure escapism and another take on characters that I felt were ill-served by the writers of a TV series or two. My interest in those characters waned and I moved on to other shows, movies or books as my inspiration.

My own writing (for pay) is usually instructive, technical or reference material. Sometimes I like to stretch my creative wings a little with something that doesn't make me work too hard, but still pushes me beyond my usual boundaries.

And I, too, cannot accept on any level, that Hermione would have ended up with Ron. Ugh. Let's let the lady have a more exciting and satisfying life, shall we? It's fun to imagine what might have been.

Finally, if you look at the sheer numbers of stories published on sites like ff.net, (more than a half million HP stories alone - seriously!) it encourages me that young people do want to write. I pray, however, that their skills improve as they practice. The current trend toward giving feedback that simply reads "Awesomely Kewl!" is not helpful. When I do take the time to leave feedback, it's honest, constructive, and points out the writer's consistent errors in grammar and punctuation. Really wish others would do that, too.

Thanks for the recommendation! I've come to a point where I've ran out of things to read.

[kennyc]

Oh My.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by Worldwalker

The legality of fanfic varies -- some rights owners explicitly permit it, some seek to destroy it, and the majority choose to overlook it. I would guess that the latter realize that the writers of fanfic are their greatest fans, evangelists, and buyers, and any loss that may be attributed to their writing is a drop in the bucket compared to the corresponding gains from their evangelizing. But with the exception of those cases where the rights owners specify that they permit fanfic (and in those cases, in the circumstances they permit), fan fiction is technically illegal.

That's unclear. There's not enough legal precedent to say "fanfic is illegal if not specifically permitted." There are certainly plenty of cases where use of an artistic work wasn't permitted, and was still ruled legal.

In the commercial world, The Wind Done Gone was ruled non-infringing (or "not likely to be infringing," at which point the lawsuit was dropped); the sequel to Catcher in the Rye was ruled infringing in the US. No lawsuit against non-commercial fanfic has even been filed, as far as I know, much less ruled on. The line between "mere derivative," which is infringement, and "transformative work," which falls within the boundaries of fair use, is blurry, and there's almost nothing in case law to give fanfic authors an idea of where they stand if the originators object.

However, parody is fair use, and a lot of fanfic can be argued as parody... the idea of "Harry and Draco grow up and marry each other" gets a laugh out of a lot of Potter fans. And some of the rest works out to literary commentary in fiction instead of essay format--a way of sharing the idea "here's what's fascinating about this character" or "allow me to showcase the motives and small details that led up to the major plot point activities." And the "what if" stories are explorations of possibilities--again, a form of critique or exploration of the original ideas, which are certainly permitted if they're structured as essays.

(examples, examples... hmm...)
A Very Malfoy Christmas, by Arineat
Wolf at the Door, by prettybird (For those who don't know, Damian is the 5th Robin, and Bruce Wayne's biological son.)
Oil and Water, by silverraven

With a very few exceptions (does it surprise anyone that Anne Rice is one of them?), most rights owners now have something of a "don't ask, don't tell" attitude

Fanlore has a list of authors' policies on fanfic; it's necessarily incomplete; many of the objections are based on the false assumption that an author who doesn't vigorously defend copyrights from all unauthorized uses will lose those protections. Some of us suspect advice from corporate lawyers who aren't used to dealing with the differences between trademark and copyright.

[Worldwalker]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

In the commercial world, The Wind Done Gone was ruled non-infringing (or "not likely to be infringing," at which point the lawsuit was dropped)...

Actually, as I understand it (and I could be wrong here), the court refused to issue an injunction, ruling that there was insufficient grounds to block the publication of The Wind Done Gone before it was actually sold. This isn't all that surprising, because US courts seem to be very leery of doing anything which could be considered prior restraint. The author and the Mitchell estate then came to a secret out-of-court settlement. What that was, of course, nobody knows -- which is something else I abhor. I would guess that payments to the Mitchell estate were involved, because (given that they commissioned Scarlett and Rhett Butler's People, contrary to Margaret Mitchell's wishes in life) I don't think this was anything but a cash grab in the first place.

The bottom line always comes down to money, and the fact that a court isn't a body convened to determine who has the better case, but rather who has the better lawyer. That leaves out most fanfic writers and hands the ball to the giant media companies ... Disney has whole laws made to its specifications, so one lil' writer in court isn't even going to be a speedbump. OTW might defend a case involving "real" fanfic (slash written by women) but if that does anything, it makes it more likely the rights owners will file against men, or against het or gen writers, instead.

[ClairePMR]

Originally Posted by marshies

Thanks for the recommendation! I've come to a point where I've ran out of things to read.

You're very welcome! Feel free to PM me if you need other sources; I've got dozens of them!

[Keryl Raist]

Originally Posted by gmw

I think this is one of the things that I've always feared about fan-fiction, that it would somehow degrade or distort the wonderful experience of the original. I can sort of see the logic of it being a starting place for new writers, but I remain unconvinced that it is all that useful (it could be interesting to know what popular authors started their time writing fan-fiction) ... the fan-fiction communities that have grown on the Internet may come to change that I guess.

It probably depends on what fan communities you belong to. I've seen loads of atrocious fan fiction out there (usually written by kids.) But, if you find adult communities the quality level improves immensely.

I'm a Harry Potter fan. I loved the books, but JKR got lost in books 6 and 7. There are literally hundreds of stories out there that are better than the real ones. Sometimes better is a matter of having been written for adult readers. Sometimes better means more carefully plotted, internally consistent, and the characters didn't suddenly lose 50 IQ points to keep the story going. In several cases these are novel length stories that I have read more times, and with more enjoyment than the originals.

Fan fic is just like any other genre, some of it is excellent, and makes you glad to be a reader because you now have that story in your mind. Some of it makes you want to claw out your eyes and somehow unsee the blasphemy on the page.

[Carriebear]

Originally Posted by Keryl Raist

I'm a Harry Potter fan. I loved the books, but JKR got lost in books 6 and 7. There are literally hundreds of stories out there that are better than the real ones.

I remember that, just after finishing the Epilogue to book 7, I had a look on my face similar to , and I remember commenting to a friend, "Well, that was just fanfiction, right there." And bad fanfiction at that. I could state my reasons for why I hated it so, but that would really derail this thread

I do think you're right, Keryl, that the fanfiction depends on where you find it. fanfiction.net, you have to wade through a lot of drivel to get to the good stuff. Livejournal, you still have to do some wading, but it's a lot more... exclusive, I suppose, in that there are so many different fanfic communities so the interests and writing styles are more... specialized, for lack of a better word.

[Keryl Raist]

Originally Posted by marshies

Thanks for the recommendation! I've come to a point where I've ran out of things to read.

You've probably been there, but if not sycophanthex.com is a moderated community (so at least all the works have minimum grammar/fact checking standards.) with lots of good stuff.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by Worldwalker

Actually, as I understand it (and I could be wrong here), the court refused to issue an injunction, ruling that there was insufficient grounds to block the publication of The Wind Done Gone before it was actually sold.

Yes. The court refuse to support the injunction, because it didn't consider it likely that infringement could be proven. Which is not quite the same as an actual ruling of "this is not infringing."

My point is that it's not "definitely illegal;" there aren't any solid legal rulings to point at to prove that fanfic violates copyright instead of falling within fair use provisions.

OTW might defend a case involving "real" fanfic (slash written by women) but if that does anything, it makes it more likely the rights owners will file against men, or against het or gen writers, instead.

OTW is not a women-writing-slash support organization. I'm pretty sure the OTW would be happy to support any fanfic author in any case of canon creators filing suit against fanfic. I know that their stance is that fanfic is generally a transformative, not derivative, use of the original. (That can't be absolute; one could argue that taking an original book and replacing all the character names with the fanficcer's friends' names is "fanfic," which would not stand up in court as transformative.) And they would likely argue that even "merely derivative" fanfic is fair use, as it's not competing with the market value of the original.

I suspect, however, that canonical rights owners would be most likely to take legal action against women writing slash, because that's what's most likely to bother them.

However. The OTW is much more likely to get involved in a case against vidding than fanfic; Paramount and the RIAA have a much more solid history of filing lawsuits against things they don't like than Harper Collins (publisher of Anne Rice, who "forbids" fanfic of her books) does.

[Keryl Raist]

Originally Posted by Carriebear

I remember that, just after finishing the Epilogue to book 7, I had a look on my face similar to , and I remember commenting to a friend, "Well, that was just fanfiction, right there." And bad fanfiction at that. I could state my reasons for why I hated it so, but that would really derail this thread

I do think you're right, Keryl, that the fanfiction depends on where you find it. fanfiction.net, you have to wade through a lot of drivel to get to the good stuff. Livejournal, you still have to do some wading, but it's a lot more... exclusive, I suppose, in that there are so many different fanfic communities so the interests and writing styles are more... specialized, for lack of a better word.

Oh, lord, I had the same look. I found a leaked copy of DH showing the epilogue and I was sure it was a hoax. The end was bad fan fiction, there was no way that's how the story really ended.

Then I got my copy, turned to the end, and felt my heart shrivel.

[ClairePMR]

Originally Posted by Keryl Raist

Oh, lord, I had the same look. I found a leaked copy of DH showing the epilogue and I was sure it was a hoax. The end was bad fan fiction, there was no way that's how the story really ended.

Then I got my copy, turned to the end, and felt my heart shrivel.

Count me in, too. I remember calling my 18-year-old niece, who had finished the book the day before I had, and we both had a moan-fest over the epilogue. What I've found is that much younger readers had a more favorable reaction to it, while more mature readers were... less satisfied. JKR virtually admitted to a great bout of intellectual laziness in an interview, revealing that she wrote the Epilogue first, before she wrote any other part of any of the seven books - and never went back to re-write it, regardless of how the characters had grown (or not, as the case may be).

Search any of the adult-focused HP communities and you'll find literally hundreds of EWE (Epilogue, What Epilogue?) stories that blow away JKR's version. In addition to the one I mentioned earlier, look at GrangerEnchanted.com, harrypotterfanfiction.com (spottier quality), and HPAdult tags on LJ.

[Worldwalker]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

OTW is not a women-writing-slash support organization.

I don't want to derail this thread, but members of the OTW board have stated in the past, in public, that fanfic is a female activity and that the fanfic community is female (I believe that's actually in their group mission statement, in fact) and that it is slash that is transformative; all other things claiming to be fanfic are merely derivative. So, while no actual case where they've defended anything has come up yet, based on their statements as an organization and the individual statements of members, it appears to me that the One True Way they espouse (and will give their members' money to defend) is female-written slash.

Mind you, I'm not saying that the things they consider the only true fanfic are not fanfic. I think they're one part of fanfic. Male writers also write fanfic. Het is also fanfic. Gen is also fanfic. (RPF is just creepy) There's room in the genre for everyone, not just the people who conform to their Way.

But anyway ... back to the thread ... we can argue this in PM if we need to, though it's probably been hashed out enough all over the Web.