SF/Fantasy Poll

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by cassidym

I think the reason I don't care for Fantasy is that it never happened. Sci Fi, OTOH, could happen.

Surely, all fiction, by definition, is something that "never happened" - that's what the word "fiction" means.

[nekokami]

Originally Posted by ProDigit

Just as long as stories don't get to where Japanese anime for kids is getting to; like people flying in the air, saying 'superpower fireball', and destroy the planet, while at the same time they die when they receive a minor punch that throws them to a rock, and gives them a little blood out of their mouth.

I'm not for those stories were Ecci-neesan happily humps around the block, sees a bad guy,and then calls on the powers of the sex demons that haunt her to totally obliterate her evil oponent.

Neither where for an unknown reason light comes out of a little magic box, and Poow-Poow,the gigantic bear-dog that can fly, takes little piu-chan to a babypink and blue world full of rainbows and gigantic purple mushrooms... if you know what I mean...

I'd prefer science fiction over fantasy by lots here...

Ooookaayy.... I have to say I agree with you on this one (and you need to get yourself a better class of anime).

Perhaps one thing we are talking about is "plausibility" again. But I think we're also talking about depth of story. Giant robots are not especially plausible (why would anyone try to make a mechanical fighting vehicle with such an impractical form?) but Neon Genesis Evangelion makes up for it (IMHO) with depth of characterization and exploration of psychological issues. (And nobody says "superpower fireball," though perhaps they do destroy the planet.) YMMV.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Surely, all fiction, by definition, is something that "never happened" - that's what the word "fiction" means.

I think Cassidym's point is that fantasy can't happen - it's by definition impossible.

One way you can look at different genres is applying the possibility test:

Historical fiction: It didn't happen in the past, but could have.

Mainstream fiction: It hasn't happened in the present, but could.

Alternative history: It didn't happen, but could have happened had historical events taken a different turn.

Science fiction: It hasn't happened, but might happen given specified scientific advances.

Fantasy: It can't happen, because it presumes different natural laws than the ones that govern our existence.
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Dennis

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by nekokami

Perhaps one thing we are talking about is "plausibility" again. But I think we're also talking about depth of story. Giant robots are not especially plausible (why would anyone try to make a mechanical fighting vehicle with such an impractical form?) but Neon Genesis Evangelion makes up for it (IMHO) with depth of characterization and exploration of psychological issues.

I can make suggestions as to why anyone would make a fighting vehicle with that form, but they have nothing to do with practicality, and everything to do with compensation on the part of the designer...

I got a laugh out of William Keith at a convention a few years back when I complimented him for almost making the the giant fighting robot plausible in his "Warstrider" series. He made them reasonably plausible in his setting, which was neat work, because I normally think of such things as simply large targets.
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Dennis

[ProDigit]

Originally Posted by nekokami

Ooookaayy.... I have to say I agree with you on this one (and you need to get yourself a better class of anime).

Perhaps one thing we are talking about is "plausibility" again. But I think we're also talking about depth of story. Giant robots are not especially plausible (why would anyone try to make a mechanical fighting vehicle with such an impractical form?) but Neon Genesis Evangelion makes up for it (IMHO) with depth of characterization and exploration of psychological issues. (And nobody says "superpower fireball," though perhaps they do destroy the planet.) YMMV.

I was just trying to make a point,though I do love anime,and own mostly video's not books of anime that ARE good.
Neon Genesis Evangelion was nice, I love Macross Pluss a lot! But I'm not a Gundam guy.

To me the stories about giant robots in some episodes are more science fiction than fantasy, since if you look at Macross Pluss series, you'd get a lot of scientific data to backup some of the things you see.
Upto today I really haven't seen any 'fantasy' anime that is somewhat plausible.
Gundamm just 'states' things like a gigantic 5ton vehicle can fly just because it can do that...,and it's made to fight; that's why we need 192 episodes to convince you that the big robot can win by showing you exactly the same situation but with a different opponent robots... then I feel less attracted to it.

Maybe a question, anyone seen .dot hack? (About a guy got trapped in a virtual world on the internet)?
what would you call that, science fiction or fantasy?
The internet is getting to the point where there already are virtual worlds where people meet, and need to do things.
However it's not there yet where a human soul would literally leave it's body to remain in the internet (like also seen in eg: Ghost in the Shell).
Ok,I'm not talking about books here, but videos, but, where do you draw the line?

Define 'fantasy'!

Wikipedia defines it as:
Fantasy is a genre that uses magic and other supernatural forms as a primary element of plot, theme, and/or setting. Fantasy is generally distinguished from science fiction and horror by the expectation that it steers clear of technological and macabre themes, respectively, though there is a great deal of overlap between the three (collectively known as speculative fiction).

Magic stories never seem real;especially since it's not backed up by science; therefor in my mind Fantasy will always be stories that be 'not credible' enough to convince me a story like that is ever going to happen.
I doubt it has something to do with the plot.

please share your opinion about this, I'm a great fan of SF and used to read a lot of stories here, but never really looked at 'fantasy' books a lot, so my perception of fantasy might be wrong...

[nekokami]

Vision of Escaflowne would, in my mind, qualify as "good" fantasy anime. (Not the manga.) But again, the interpersonal relationships and characterizations are what distinguish that story.

If the plots of .hack or Ghost in the Shell appeal to you, you might try Spirits in the Wires, by Charles de Lint. I think most people would consider de Lint a "fantasy" writer, but his people and conflicts tend to be very believable. You can consider them, if you like, stories from a slightly-alternate Earth with slightly different-- but plausible and oddly familiar-- rules from our own.

[igorsk]

Originally Posted by ProDigit

Upto today I really haven't seen any 'fantasy' anime that is somewhat plausible.

Try Scrapped Princess... though some might argue whether it's actually fantasy, especially toward the end of the series

[Penforhire]

Jim Butcher is a fantasy author who works hard to make it credible. But I agree at root, per DMcCunney's list, it is still "impossible."

I take slight issue with DM's definition of historical fiction, "It didn't happen in the past, but could have." I believe some historical fiction MIGHT have happened. We don't have enough information to know for certain so the claim of fiction is true. But it doesn't mean it "didn't" happen.

[ProDigit]

Unless ofcourse you're reading an adult book about perverts fantasying their pervert desires (which could be real), fantasy is fiction...

[BenG]

If you want spaceships and magic you could try The Keltiad series by Patricia Kennealy-Morrison (Jim Morrison's widow).

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by Penforhire

Jim Butcher is a fantasy author who works hard to make it credible. But I agree at root, per DMcCunney's list, it is still "impossible."

I take slight issue with DM's definition of historical fiction, "It didn't happen in the past, but could have." I believe some historical fiction MIGHT have happened. We don't have enough information to know for certain so the claim of fiction is true. But it doesn't mean it "didn't" happen.

By definition, "fiction" means "Didn't happen". If we ever discover it did happen, it's no longer fiction.

Unless you want to create in in-between genre for "might have happened but we don't know for sure", I'll stand by my definition.
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Dennis

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by BenG

If you want spaceships and magic you could try The Keltiad series by Patricia Kennealy-Morrison (Jim Morrison's widow).

I read them with profoundly mixed feelings.

There have been a variety of attempts to blend the two forms. Melissa Scott did the "Silence Leigh" stories, where magic and science are both valid paradigms, but mutually exclusive: if you use one, you can't use the other. Fred Saberhagen's "Empire of the East" series featured a catastrophic event before the beginning of the series that altered natural law, so technology and magic both worked. Emma Bull and Will Shetterly have done works set in an area where Faery has impinged upon Earth, and in the Borderlands, magic and science work, but not always or reliably.

Keneally simply presents the co-existence of magic and technology as a given, and makes no effort to explain it. So she can have computer controlled starships delivering armies to distant planets, where naked, blue painted fain warriors will contend with broadswords against their enemies.

She's a good enough story teller that she mostly gets away with it and carries you along while you're reading, but afterward there's a tendency to say "Wait a minute..."
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Dennis

[Lemurion]

I liked Julian May's "Saga of Pliocene Exile." While the books are clearly SF, there is a strong background of Celtic myth that gives it a fantasy flavor. Everything's psionics and technology - but the story reads like an epic fantasy.

[Slite]

Originally Posted by Lemurion

I liked Julian May's "Saga of Pliocene Exile." While the books are clearly SF, there is a strong background of Celtic myth that gives it a fantasy flavor. Everything's psionics and technology - but the story reads like an epic fantasy.

Damn it, chalk up another re-read onto my ever growing list, read those ages ago and loved them. Are they available as e-books (legaly)?

[zerospinboson]

Originally Posted by Slite

Damn it, chalk up another re-read onto my ever growing list, read those ages ago and loved them. Are they available as e-books (legaly)?

To the latter question: No.