MobileRead Administration: New years reading categories

[Nyssa]

Originally Posted by VioletVal

I think it makes sense to use polls to decide this issue, but have potentially two separate polls. The first would be a simple yes or no poll asking if you want the second classic month to change categories. Then, if the majority votes yes, we can have another poll for what we would like the category to be.

ETA: That way, if most people want the category changed, then at least everyone else has a say as to what that category would be.

[sun surfer]

I am fine with whatever is decided, but I am not a fan of changing categories for this year mid-year. Nor am I a fan of having a referendum on one particular category.

I think if anyone with the persistence of Jon had brought up, say, Comedy, or Romance, or perhaps others, we may be having referendums on those too.

If we are to examine one month, I think we should examine all. And I think it should be left to next year's categories, not this year's.

[issybird]

Originally Posted by sun surfer

I am fine with whatever is decided, but I am not a fan of changing categories for this year mid-year. Nor am I a fan of having a referendum on one particular category.

I think if anyone with the persistence of Jon had brought up, say, Comedy, or Romance, or perhaps others, we may be having referendums on those too.

If we are to examine one month, I think we should examine all. And I think it should be left to next year's categories, not this year's.

[Nyssa]

Originally Posted by sun surfer

I am fine with whatever is decided, but I am not a fan of changing categories for this year mid-year. Nor am I a fan of having a referendum on one particular category.

I think if anyone with the persistence of Jon had brought up, say, Comedy, or Romance, or perhaps others, we may be having referendums on those too.

If we are to examine one month, I think we should examine all. And I think it should be left to next year's categories, not this year's.

Why are you guys stuck on it being one or 2 months?

1. Speaking for myself, It is not the genre itself that is being challenged but the frequency... Again no one has suggested getting rid of Classics (well maybe Jon did, I don't remember, but no one 2nd the idea anyway)...we are asking to keep Classics to one month instead of two.

2. Issybird made the same suggestion as to overhauling the list as a whole, and we (you, Issy and I) seem to be the only ones who are even entertaining that idea. So, unless PilotBob brings it up, himself, I don't see that happening.

3. Waiting until next year is fine. We can still discuss the matter today. In fact, its better if we do; that way we can all get our points of view in before any final decision is made.

[sun surfer]

Originally Posted by Nyssa

Why are you guys stuck on it being one or 2 months?

1. Speaking for myself, It is not the genre itself that is being challenged but the frequency... Again no one has suggested getting rid of Classics (well maybe Jon did, I don't remember, but no one 2nd the idea anyway)...we are asking to keep Classics to one month instead of two.

2. Issybird made the same suggestion as to overhauling the list as a whole, and we (you, Issy and I) seem to be the only ones who are even entertaining that idea. So, unless PilotBob brings it up, himself, I don't see that happening.

3. Waiting until next year is fine. We can still discuss the matter today. In fact, its better if we do; that way we can all get our points of view in before any final decision is made.

1. If one month had been "European Classics" and the other had been "Non-European Classics", then would that change your mind? Then they would be two different categories. Having two months of classics is the same as having two months of sci-fi/fantasy, or three months of mystery/thriller/horror.

2. If we are as persistent as some have been, then I'm sure others would entertain the idea.

3. Then we are agreed. We can discuss the matter whenever we like. However, the membership is always changing - another reason against a random vote now, as the membership will be different later. We could vote out a second classic now only to have more people a few months later prefer a second classic. I'm not sure how these things were decided before, but if we are to collectively decide next year's categories or any changes, we should do it all at once closer to the end of this year. And once they are decided, they should be final for the next year. Otherwise, we could have referendum votes every other month.

[Nyssa]

Originally Posted by sun surfer

1. If one month had been "European Classics" and the other had been "Non-European Classics", then would that change your mind? Then they would be two different categories. Having two months of classics is the same as having two months of sci-fi/fantasy, or three months of mystery/thriller/horror.

1a. I don't know. They're both classics. Besides location, what are their differences?
Comparing classics to scifi/fantasy is comparing apples to oranges. Not all Science Fiction (speculative fiction based in science and technology), are Fantasy (fantastical fiction based on magic, the supernatural, the paranormal, and the unreal) and not all Fantasy are Science Fiction (as I pointed out a few posts ago)...they are two different genre's with their own rules. The same goes for Mysteries, Thrillers and Horrors - as a rule I don't read horrors, I'm not a fan of being scared and/or horrified. A mystery isn't always scary or even thrilling; a thriller isn't always a mystery or scary, and sometimes horror is nothing more than horror.

A classic is always a classic.

1b. I would ask for a change if we had 2 months of science fiction, 2 months of fantasy, 2 months of horror, 2 months of mystery, etc.

Originally Posted by sun surfer

2. If we are as persistent as some have been, then I'm sure others would entertain the idea.

Maybe. I've already said I'm gamed.

Originally Posted by sun surfer

3. Then we are agreed. We can discuss the matter whenever we like. However, the membership is always changing - another reason against a random vote now, as the membership will be different later. We could vote out a second classic now only to have more people a few months later prefer a second classic. I'm not sure how these things were decided before, but if we are to collectively decide next year's categories or any changes, we should do it all at once closer to the end of this year. And once they are decided, they should be final for the next year. Otherwise, we could have referendum votes every other month.

So the members change!?! They decide that they want 3 months of classics - we do exactly what we're doing now...discuss it, and hopefully vote on it. Then the members change again and they want 3 months of fantasy..so we discuss it, and we hopefully vote on it. Or we do nothing and the members change anyway, because that is the nature of an open, public forum.
I'll still be asking for 1 month per genre.

I agree with what has been said by Issybird and Sun Surfer that categories like Sc-Fi or Fantasy are more fine grained than the general category of classics. That is where the argument is presently going in circles though, the merits of picking only the current December category for change through a poll.

Originally Posted by VioletVal

I think it makes sense to use polls to decide this issue, but have potentially two separate polls. The first would be a simple yes or no poll asking if you want the second classic month to change categories. Then, if the majority votes yes, we can have another poll for what we would like the category to be.

ETA: That way, if most people want the category changed, then at least everyone else has a say as to what that category would be.

I would disagree. The fair way would to be have a single process of nomination and vote. Let nominations be made of potential categories (not excluding classics as a potential nominee), require say two seconds, and vote among those categories that make it to that final stage.

[issybird]

Originally Posted by sun surfer

1. If one month had been "European Classics" and the other had been "Non-European Classics", then would that change your mind? Then they would be two different categories. Having two months of classics is the same as having two months of sci-fi/fantasy, or three months of mystery/thriller/horror.

I was thinking of pre-1900 classic and 1900 to 1960 classic, but this works too.

Originally Posted by sunsurfer

I'm not sure how these things were decided before, but if we are to collectively decide next year's categories or any changes, we should do it all at once closer to the end of this year. And once they are decided, they should be final for the next year. Otherwise, we could have referendum votes every other month.

I'm still confused about what it takes to claim sufficient groundswell support that it's time to call for a poll. Who the heck decided all this?

[Nyssa]

Originally Posted by Hamlet53

The fair way would to be have a single process of nomination and vote. Let nominations be made of potential categories (not excluding classics as a potential nominee), require say two seconds, and vote among those categories that make it to that final stage.

Hmm.. I like that process even more! Nominate, 2nd, 3rd, and then vote.

[sun surfer]

Originally Posted by Nyssa

Not all Science Fiction (speculative fiction based in science and technology), are Fantasy (fantastical fiction based on magic, the supernatural, the paranormal, and the unreal)

They are close enough to very often be labelled together into a sci-fi/fantasy category, though.

The same goes for Mysteries, Thrillers and Horrors - as a rule I don't read horrors, I'm not a fan of being scared and/or horrified. A mystery isn't always scary or even thrilling; a thriller isn't always a mystery or scary, and sometimes horror is nothing more than horror.

They are all "Suspense" though.

So the members change!?! They decide that they want 3 months of classics - we do exactly what we're doing now...discuss it, and hopefully vote on it. Then the members change again and they want 3 months of fantasy..so we discuss it, and we hopefully vote on it. Or we do nothing and the members change anyway, because that is the nature of an open, public forum.
I'll still be asking for 1 month per genre.

Yes, the members definitely change. Some come, some go. I wasn't a member this time last year, and I've seen others join since me, and some who posted when I first started don't seem to post anymore.

But you are definitely helping to make my point about the demerits of a vote/decision about a second classic month now. It opens up the possibility of anyone complaining and anyone voting to change categories anytime. If we voted now on the second classic month we'd set a bad precedent, no matter what wins.

Also, I think many members aren't as vocal and persistent as some here. Many may prefer tweaks to certain other categories but don't feel the need to complain about it or force the issue. I feel that classics at the moment are being singled out.

If there were no opposition, it may be a different story, but there are obviously those of us who like the second classic category.

If we are to discuss categories as a group, we can discuss it anytime, but I feel that the fairest and simplest way to make decisions is once a year and all at once, if at all.

[sun surfer]

Originally Posted by issybird

I'm still confused about what it takes to claim sufficient groundswell support that it's time to call for a poll. Who the heck decided all this?

I would agree. My suggestions thus far on new category decisions are more of an "only if we must, then..." discussion.

[issybird]

Originally Posted by sun surfer

I would agree. My suggestions thus far on new category decisions are more of an "only if we must, then..." discussion.

Yup. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." And to me, an issue with one month out of twelve doesn't qualify as broke.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Nyssa

Science Fiction and Fantasy ARE different. Science Fiction's base is in science & technology, where as, Fantasy's base is magic & the supernatural/paranormal. It just so happens that both genres can be easily intermixed.

It's like mystery & thrillers can also be intermixed even though they are different as well.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Nyssa

How would one know a classic is a classic other than to look at it? Its all the same thing in the end, is it not? A book is just a book until its read.

I have read some classics that were just awful and I would never claim them be to classic. Sure, I don't have to like a story for it to be classic. But these were just so bad as to not really be classic.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by sun surfer

1. If one month had been "European Classics" and the other had been "Non-European Classics", then would that change your mind? Then they would be two different categories. Having two months of classics is the same as having two months of sci-fi/fantasy, or three months of mystery/thriller/horror.

2. If we are as persistent as some have been, then I'm sure others would entertain the idea.

3. Then we are agreed. We can discuss the matter whenever we like. However, the membership is always changing - another reason against a random vote now, as the membership will be different later. We could vote out a second classic now only to have more people a few months later prefer a second classic. I'm not sure how these things were decided before, but if we are to collectively decide next year's categories or any changes, we should do it all at once closer to the end of this year. And once they are decided, they should be final for the next year. Otherwise, we could have referendum votes every other month.

We cannot base what categories we have based on who might join or leave. We have to base it on who there is now. We have two classics. We have one of everything else? Why have two of something when we can have yet another category and have even more choice? Besides, if you want a 2nd classic, pick a classic for the free for all get it to win.