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Old 02-23-2012, 07:12 PM   #91
taosaur
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I've always thought that if they allow ereaders to share books with other ereaders, but only via bluetooth, then that would pretty much solve everyones problem.

You can still share books with close friends and family that you know, but not with everyone on facebook.

Library lending could be done the same way as well, so you have to physically go into the library (like you always had to with pbooks).
That sounds a bit like this app I saw last week: https://market.android.com/details?id=com.atono.swarm
It lets you make files available in a specific geographic location for a limited time. I have no idea if it will ever be useful for anything, but it's an interesting idea. The idea seems to be that you create a kind of file-sharing flash mob by letting people know, "Get to Public Square between noon and four and you can download x."

Ultimately though, your idea is still a highly artificial constraint and a diversion of resources toward making the product less useful. The problem with DRM isn't just that it's done poorly, but that it's a fundamentally bad idea. Colluding to hobble every product on the market is much more antisocial than file-sharing.
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Old 02-23-2012, 07:21 PM   #92
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nothing against smashwords but we live in the real world here.

don't watch a dvd with a friend, they're stealing it and should buy their own copy. its not licensed for public broadcast. don't cook them a meal that used a recipe you got in a cookbook either, thats stealing the work of the author and the right thing to do is tell them to buy the book and cook it themselves.

"hey man, this metallica cd is awesome!"

"cool. take off your headphones and put it on the stereo so we can both listen."

"sorry dude, thats stealing. this cd is licensed for my use only so you'll have to buy your own or wait until i'm done to listen."

*gets punched*

how far are we willing to go with this? i may come off like a flippant ass but i'm merely trying to follow the line of thought out to its logical conclusion.

theres terms of service and then theres the real world. i dare say 99.99% of folks live in the real world and think that buying a 2nd copy of an easily copyable medium for the person sitting next to them on the couch is idiotic.
Yes, that's exactly it. And somehow they think this methodology will result in more book sales. It's ridiculous. Loaning my buddy a copy of A Game of Thrones is more likely to sell him a GRR Martin book than if everyone has to buy a copy blind just to try it out.

I shouldn't need to buy a 2nd copy of a ebook if I want my wife or my buddy to read it. It's stupid and counter-productive. Word of mouth, loans, and libraries is how people try out new books and new authors.

Publishers are digging their own grave, just like the music industry was doing for so long in the late 90s/early 2000s.

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Old 02-23-2012, 07:26 PM   #93
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Another major factor in the decline might be other media that gets consumed. Not that piracy is no factor (and none in these other areas, too), but there's not only movies, music and books.

People buy a lot of apps, games for different kinds of devices, ringtones (are they in that graph as well?), videos for their mobiles/smartphones and things like that.

Also there's a rather fixed amount everyone can spend. And with everyday costs steeply rising (like costs for rent, energy, food, commuting and the like), that's another factor.

I won't say piracy didn't make a change at all, but I don't think that all of the decline is due to illegal downloading or copying music.

the decline also seems to coincide with when the playstation was introduced and video games exploded with the general populace.

maybe the simplest solution is the correct one: people are just buying other stuff with their money. *shrug*. i used to buy a bleep-load of cds, now i buy maybe 2 a year. i just don't follow music anymore and would rather buy books or games. something had to give.
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Old 02-23-2012, 07:36 PM   #94
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maybe the simplest solution is the correct one: people are just buying other stuff with their money. *shrug*. i used to buy a bleep-load of cds, now i buy maybe 2 a year. i just don't follow music anymore and would rather buy books or games. something had to give.
That makes a lot of sense. My rate of buying stuff doesn't stay constant. There is only so much crap a person needs. Once I built up my "foundational" collection of stuff, the need to acquire slows down.

I don't buy as much music as I used to, anymore. I have a massive CD collection, I can hardly keep up with all the CBC podcasts I download, and every now and then I hear more music on the radio and youtube.

Same with books, movies, etc. I'm in my 40's and have spent most of my life acquiring the stuff that makes me "me".
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Old 02-23-2012, 07:50 PM   #95
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The graph is only one data point in an complicated economy...but it sure looks like piracy may be having an effect on music sales. Looking at the previous dip, the high point for music sales was in 1978; there was a steep 4-year fall, and sales hit their lowest point in 1982. There was a plateau for about a year and sales begain going up again in 1983. So 4 year drop, 1 year plateau, gradual climb up again.

Contrast that to the more recent decline - sales were at their peak in 1999 and basically fell for the next 10 years. There is what probably looked like it would be a plateau in 2003...but then music sales just continued to fall. This 10 year fall doesn't really look anything like the shorter, less deep 4 year fall of the early 80's.

I should also point out that the recession of 90-91 doesn't seem to have had any effect on music sales.

As I mentioned above, it's hard to really pin a cause/effect relationship on a graph like this. But the graph doesn't really suggest that we are just in a down cycle like 78-82 (although that may have some effect); nor does it support a purely recessionary theory (due to the 90-91 recession being missed, among other things). It's really hard to avoid the conclusion that piracy has likely contributed to at least some of the decline we've seen since 1999, even though there are almost certainly several other factors that will have contributed to the decline, one of was probably the economy.
There hasn't been a decline in the music industry, there's been a decline in recorded music sales. The drop off in recorded music sales in 1999 also corresponds rather nicely with the major record labels being charged with illegal price fixing in that year; generally revenues fall when you're forced to stop price fixing.

I hate to post this a second time in the same thread, but it's relevant:




This doesn't mean that there's no losses due to piracy, but let's keep things in the proper perspective - content producers are making more money now than ever have thanks to the internet.

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Old 02-23-2012, 07:56 PM   #96
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That makes a lot of sense. My rate of buying stuff doesn't stay constant. There is only so much crap a person needs. Once I built up my "foundational" collection of stuff, the need to acquire slows down.

I don't buy as much music as I used to, anymore. I have a massive CD collection, I can hardly keep up with all the CBC podcasts I download, and every now and then I hear more music on the radio and youtube.

Same with books, movies, etc. I'm in my 40's and have spent most of my life acquiring the stuff that makes me "me".
i spent a lot of years and $$$ building up discographies/bibliographies. when the handful of authors or bands i enjoy have a year or so (at minimum) between releases it slows my consumption down to a crawl.


an even more simple answer: maybe people just don't like whats being put out. the late 90s and this past decade saw a shift in the industry from artists who put out true, complete albums towards those who have a hit single or whose songs make a snazzy ringtone. if only 1 or 2 songs on the cd are good people are only going to buy those 1 or 2 songs thanks to the ability of this internet gizmo.

the late 90s, along with the rise of the internet, also saw the explosion of indie bands and the ability of said bands to sell their music directly to fans through things like youtube and social media. these bands aren't necessarily tracked through industry methods.

i think its just far more complex than the blanket "sales are down? people are stealing it" answer that the industry loves to give.
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Old 02-23-2012, 08:17 PM   #97
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I know music sales are way down in my house over 10 years ago - I think I'm aging out of the rock scene. Anyway, I'd just as soon listen to audiobooks as I would music these days. The only one who buys music in our house anymore is my daughter, and she buys rarely... again not so much because of piracy as because it's getting harder for her to find bands that she likes and follows.
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Old 02-23-2012, 08:31 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Andrew H. View Post
The graph is only one data point in an complicated economy...but it sure looks like piracy may be having an effect on music sales. Looking at the previous dip, the high point for music sales was in 1978; there was a steep 4-year fall, and sales hit their lowest point in 1982. There was a plateau for about a year and sales begain going up again in 1983. So 4 year drop, 1 year plateau, gradual climb up again.

Contrast that to the more recent decline - sales were at their peak in 1999 and basically fell for the next 10 years. There is what probably looked like it would be a plateau in 2003...but then music sales just continued to fall. This 10 year fall doesn't really look anything like the shorter, less deep 4 year fall of the early 80's.

I should also point out that the recession of 90-91 doesn't seem to have had any effect on music sales.

As I mentioned above, it's hard to really pin a cause/effect relationship on a graph like this. But the graph doesn't really suggest that we are just in a down cycle like 78-82 (although that may have some effect); nor does it support a purely recessionary theory (due to the 90-91 recession being missed, among other things). It's really hard to avoid the conclusion that piracy has likely contributed to at least some of the decline we've seen since 1999, even though there are almost certainly several other factors that will have contributed to the decline, one of was probably the economy.

How much is attribuable to piracy? 90%, 9% 0.9%. <SHRUG> mutliple people have pointed to reasons for the drop in recorded sales. All of them perfectly valid. The shift to single tracks instead of forcing the consumer to buy large blocks of track and higher prices for just the few they wanted? Completion of the analog to digital conversions from the 80's and 90's. All potential causes of LARGE drops by themselves. Combined? Even more likely. But the only drum you can seem to hit is piracy.

What you fail to acknowledge is things like CD's and DVD's are <durable>, they last <decades>. It's not soda pop, and you won't ever make it into a soda pop product....

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Old 02-23-2012, 08:35 PM   #99
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I just want to know why they aren't going after used book stores? They don't get paid for the books sold there. And everyone knows those dastardly used book store owners are making a profit (something that from what I understand most pirate sites don't) off the backs of the poor publishers.
Because there's this concept called the "right of first sale" that applies to physical goods (and, morally, to digital goods - software, ebooks, music and video files) in most, if not all, jurisdictions that they've had to give up fighting against. Basically, once they sell it to you, they have no right to interfere with what you do with it afterwards, including sharing it with as many people as you want, selling it, or just dumping it in the garbage.

Sadly, it looks like they're being allowed to win the fight against the right of first sale for digital products by claiming they're "licensed", not sold, even though such a "license" is virtually never disclosed at time of sale, instead being put in clickwrap EULAs for software and tucked away in the dark corners of store sites where virtually no one who isn't specifically looking for it will notice.
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Old 02-23-2012, 08:39 PM   #100
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What you fail to acknowledge is things like CD's and DVD's are <durable>, they last <decades>. It's not soda pop, and you won't ever make it into a soda pop product....
And you can only listen to so much of it.

I have enough music that were I to listen to them all end-to-end, it would probably take weeks to hear to the end. Maybe months. So I don't actually buy more music unless it's an artist I REALLY care about. (And that is 99% of the time going to be a filk artist. LOL, RIAA!)

Now, I buy more books than I will ever read. So probably some people buy more music than they will ever listen to. But probably not the majority.

I will say something else, though. One reason I rarely buy modern/mainstream music is because I don't HEAR it. Once the radio stations started getting all chatty all the time, I turned them off. (And I discovered filk through Napster, back when I was young and I didn't know that was illegal.)

So, way to go, music industry, for pursuing a "pay to hear" policy that effectively means that I NEVER get modern music stuck in my head, causing me to head over to Amazon MP3 store for a fix. And, book industry, please feel free to do the exact same thing. LOL, our society!
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Old 02-23-2012, 08:50 PM   #101
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I know music sales are way down in my house over 10 years ago - I think I'm aging out of the rock scene.
That's another factor - the Baby Boomers hitting their 50s and beyond in the late 90s. At that age, you tend not to buy much in the way of new music (always exceptions, of course), especially not new modern music. Actually, I personally don't know anyone over 50 who's bought new music in the last decade - everyone that age I know mainly sticks to radio (either country or classic rock, at home or in the car).

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Old 02-23-2012, 09:30 PM   #102
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That's another factor - the Baby Boomers hitting their 50s and beyond in the late 90s. At that age, you tend not to buy much in the way of new music (always exceptions, of course), especially not new modern music. Actually, I personally don't know anyone over 50 who's bought new music in the last decade - everyone that age I know mainly sticks to radio (either country or classic rock, at home or in the car).
I've got a few years before hitting 50, (born in the 60s) but that pretty much describes me. I used to collect favorite CDs a lot, because I wanted to have my own faves at my disposal in my house whenever I wanted. These days, new stuff that comes out has to really work hard to manipulating me into adding it to my collection.

I also have gone the route of playing music to entertain myself, too. I have two guitars, a ukulele, a piano, my kids have various instruments, my husband plays viola. I'm by no means professional, but I get satisfaction and pleasure out of being able to sing "Sunshine on my Shoulders" whenever the mood strikes me.

Heh, this has nothing to do with the Pirate Bay, but those pirates better not steal my guitar!
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Old 02-23-2012, 09:52 PM   #103
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That's another factor - the Baby Boomers hitting their 50s and beyond in the late 90s.
Demographics drive just about everything in an advanced economy. Wait till the baby boomers start retiring and downsizing their homes. Can't wait to find out how piracy is hurting house sales!
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Old 02-23-2012, 09:53 PM   #104
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I'm pretty much of the exact same vintage, but I find myself buying more music than ever. However, I'm probably very much an aberration both in habit and taste in music. I've moved gradually backwards in time over the last few years and now prefer music from before the 17th century and/or from very foreign shores. None of it released by the big labels, but by small boutique labels and ensembles. Modern music? I might pick up one or two CDs per year, or three in a good one. The thought of paying good money for an MP3 file would never enter my mind.
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Old 02-23-2012, 10:34 PM   #105
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The thought of paying good money for an MP3 file would never enter my mind.
Me too. "Rip to FLAC, and never go back"!

(I just made that up, but it's accurate )
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