First Sale Doctrine now under assault

[MovieBird]

Originally Posted by HarryT

But they're almost certainly not all buying the same textbook. As a minimum, your 5000 students are probably buying 3 or 4 different textbooks, so that's a market of perhaps 1000-1500 copies per book. That's not a lot, especially if half the students are buying a 2nd-hand rather than a new copy.

Without publisher numbers this is all fantastical wish-thinking, but I was assuming only one class was taught each year at each school. Also, that the list I linked was exhaustive. I pointed out that the number of one-class per year schools could be more than doubled by included aeronautical programs, and probably increased ten-fold when you include flight schools, race-car dynamics courses, or even civilians that want to learn about a subject. I, myself, have purchased three different textbooks in the past year in order to become more informed about the area I work in.

In short, 5,000 seems low for this book. But let's take 5,000 as the number sold. That's $930,800 at the Amazon price. Let's say the publisher gets half, or $465,400. That sounds really good for a book that's on it's 5th edition, and so doesn't need anything more than typo revision and $10 an hour graduate problem solvers for the end of chapter stuff.

[Dulin's Books]

besides which the person(s) authoring the book have a degree and they are undoubtedly still paying of their student debt so the price to get someone to author a text book aside from their day job has to reflect that.

[Ntsimp]

Originally Posted by HarryT

The cost of doing business varies dramatically in different markets. A manufacturer has to charge a price which reflects local market conditions. It's unrealistic to charge the same for a textbook in a third-word country as in the US or Western Europe.

Then how can a reseller make money by importing the lower-priced book from the third world? I can't see why the manufacturer would have any higher "cost of doing business" in either of the two markets than the reseller. Either you're wrong, or the manufacturer is selling at a loss in the third world (subsidized by the developed nations).

[Dulin's Books]

yes thats right. the lower prices in one place are "subsidized" by higher prices in others.

[MovieBird]

Originally Posted by Dulin's Books

yes thats right. the lower prices in one place are "subsidized" by higher prices in others.

If it costs more to make a book and sell it in a market than you'll recoup upon sale... Why not not make the book in the first place? Then the sales from the higher priced areas will generate larger profits.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by MovieBird

It is absolutely unconscionable for undergraduate texts to cost as much as they do.

You're absolutely right, of course. It's even more disgusting when textbook authors/publishers play games with new editions in order to poison the used market. They're one of the sleaziest groups within the content industry, and that's saying quite a bit.

However, seeing as how Harry is an ex- textbook author, you're probably wasting your breath arguing that with him.

[RainingLemur]

Originally Posted by Ekaros

Still, it's purely wrong if this is done for physical products. Not sure if they can enforce it though...

They're already KIND OF doing it now. There are some console games (the physical copy) that have the online multiplayer as the biggest/most-played portion of said game. And, when you buy the new copy and go online, it asks for a registration code of sorts to gain access. Then, if I buy the game used (and the code has been used), I have to pony up another $15 bucks for another online license code if I want to play online.

It's called "Online Pass" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_pass).

[wodin]

The facts are that just as any other business college texts sell for whatever the market will bear. If a publisher can get $186.19 for Fundamentals of Aerodynamics he most certainly will. And if a student can find the same text on the used market, then he will do that.

In my college days, which admittedly were a very long time ago, professors would frequently supplement their income by authoring and publishing a small run textbook and assigning it to their class. Their clientele usually was limited to their own students, so they might sell a maximum of a few hundred books over a several year run; but when the used book market caught up, that well would run dry. Selling and trading used textbooks was a thriving business in college towns across the country.

[MovieBird]

Originally Posted by wodin

In my college days, which admittedly were a very long time ago, professors would frequently supplement their income by authoring and publishing a small run textbook and assigning it to their class. Their clientele usually was limited to their own students, so they might sell a maximum of a few hundred books over a several year run; but when the used book market caught up, that well would run dry. Selling and trading used textbooks was a thriving business in college towns across the country.

See, I find that practice morally repugnant. If you want to teach a subject matter in your own special flower way with your own notes, great! Take it down to the university printing shop, you know where everyone gets their thesis papers and poster printed, and make some copies.

DON'T publish an entire book just to supplement your income. Go get a consulting job or something with the cachet the Ph.D. gives you.

This is about educating young people. Not fleecing them to line your own pockets.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by MovieBird

DON'T publish an entire book just to supplement your income. Go get a consulting job or something with the cachet the Ph.D. gives you.

This is about educating young people. Not fleecing them to line your own pockets.

For many of them, yes, it is about lining their own pockets.

That's OK though, when it doesn't work out they'll just blame piracy.

[wodin]

Originally Posted by MovieBird

See, I find that practice morally repugnant. If you want to teach a subject matter in your own special flower way with your own notes, great! Take it down to the university printing shop, you know where everyone gets their thesis papers and poster printed, and make some copies.

DON'T publish an entire book just to supplement your income. Go get a consulting job or something with the cachet the Ph.D. gives you.

This is about educating young people. Not fleecing them to line your own pockets.

Yes, I also did and still do "find that practice morally repugnant", as well as ethically questionable. But then I'm not a college professor with a Ph.D. Once again, whatever the market will bear!

[Kumabjorn]

Originally Posted by wodin

The facts are that just as any other business college texts sell for whatever the market will bear. If a publisher can get $186.19 for Fundamentals of Aerodynamics he most certainly will. And if a student can find the same text on the used market, then he will do that.

In my college days, which admittedly were a very long time ago, professors would frequently supplement their income by authoring and publishing a small run textbook and assigning it to their class. Their clientele usually was limited to their own students, so they might sell a maximum of a few hundred books over a several year run; but when the used book market caught up, that well would run dry. Selling and trading used textbooks was a thriving business in college towns across the country.

That has less with money to do than "publish or perish". It is a common practice for "mid-level" professors to fill their required quota of publications, when establshed academic publishers reject their manuscripts.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by Kumabjorn

That has less with money to do than "publish or perish". It is a common practice for "mid-level" professors to fill their required quota of publications, when establshed academic publishers reject their manuscripts.

That doesn't explain the common practice of tweaking the textbook just enough so that the previous edition in the used bookstore is useless. That sounds like a deliberate attempt to make money at the expense of their students.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

For many of them, yes, it is about lining their own pockets.

Tenured professors are above morals and ethics; they can do as they please.

I had a drafting class professor that would show up at the beginning of class, assign a problem to be worked, and go away until quitting time to pick up the finished product. He'd return it "graded" at the beginning of the next "class" and repeat the process. He literally taught nothing. I at least had a year of drafting from High School so he wasn't going to teach me anything new even if he'd tried and I did fine second semester when we got a real teacher but a lot of his other victims didn't have that edge.

A math professor would cram a full semester's worth of material with finals and all and end the course the last day for dropping a course. If you lied your grade, you "stayed", if you were flunking, you dropped the course. It was hell to pass and many switched away but as many switched in; that extra free period came in real handy over the last two months.

I'm sure every college survivor can list their own horror stories.
Textbook hijinks are the least of them, but at least they explain why the student in the lawsuit did what he did; in that kind of free-for-all environment if you see an opening, you take it.

Just ask Michael Dell, Bill Gates, or Zuckerberg.

[cjr72]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

That doesn't explain the common practice of tweaking the textbook just enough so that the previous edition in the used bookstore is useless. That sounds like a deliberate attempt to make money at the expense of their students.

I had a Calculus professor who was outraged by that. The new edition was the same material, they just rearranged the chapters and the exercise questions at the end of the chapters. He told us on the first day it was ok to buy the previous edition used and he would give the exercise question numbers for both the old and the new when he assigned them to us.