Ebook Reselling -Yea or Nay- - Page 2

sufue · 03-13-2011, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giggleton

I am interested in selling my ebooks at a price of zero.

The vast majority of my used p-books go to our local "Friends of the Library" book sale. I do sell a few, but not many.

I find it sad that I can not even donate my used e-books to our local library. Who knows, they might even want to keep them for their own e-book collection, since it's pretty puny right now - and unlikely to get any bigger if the HC 26-checkout limit nonsense spreads to other Big 6 publishers.

Janette55 · 03-13-2011, 11:12 AM

I remember reading somewhere on a forum, not sure which one of a individual who bought a reader expecting to have all the books on it and they couldn't get to them.
They didn't say what type. They weren't asking for help, it was just a remarked in another discusion.

Anyhow, if I were to decide to sell my Sony 900 (I shudder at the thought) wouldn't all the books I have on it still be there for the person who would buy it?

The only way I could see a person wanting to sell a reader is because they bought a new one. If that would happen, then what happens to the books that have been installed on it?

A Kindle I can see as they have some form of password to activate it, and if you are connected to the Sony Library it could create a problem otherwise, I don't see how selling a reader can affect the books on it.

I do feel that in some ways the books on a reader is different from paperback beside the obvious of electronic device versus paper. When I finish a DTB I can sell it to a used book store, give it away or burn it,it is my choice.
But an ebook, doesn't the ability to transfer a copy open up the door for an individual to pirate copies?
I know that is a problem now, the DRM is being stripped and copies are being sold. There is no black and white in this area.

As for selling the ebooks (not the reader) I am of both minds, I can see the good and bad of both sides. If you are asking if sell the reader with the boooks then I go it should be allowed.

HarryT · 03-13-2011, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janette55

Anyhow, if I were to decide to sell my Sony 900 (I shudder at the thought) wouldn't all the books I have on it still be there for the person who would buy it?

It depends.

If the books were in the public domain, that would be fine.

If your contract with the bookstore from which you bought the books stated that they were non-transferrable, you would be in breach of contract, and could be prosecuted.

If you retained copies on your own PC, or under your account at the bookstore, you'd be breaking copyright law.

JSWolf · 03-13-2011, 11:19 AM

How can the publisher be sure that once the sale is made, that there is still not a copy left behind by the seller?

Personally, I am in favor of being able to sell eBooks. But I do understand how that question is an important one that really does need to be answered.

Elfwreck · 03-13-2011, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

If your contract with the bookstore from which you bought the books stated that they were non-transferrable, you would be in breach of contract, and could be prosecuted.

If the contract itself were legal. If the contract is based on flawed interpretations of the law, it's not enforceable. If the books were sold in the first place, not licensed, it's not illegal to re-sell them or give them away. Just because the ebookstore claims they were licensing them doesn't make it true.

Just like copyright statements in the front of many books:

Quote:

All rights reserved. No part of this book may be reproduced or transmitted in any form or by any means, electronic or mechanical,
including photocopying, recording, or by any information storage and retrieval system, without permission in writing from the author.

It's false. You *can* legally reproduce parts of the book without permission. Can quote it for reviews, can use it for analysis or research, can make lists of the contents and characters, and so on. Just because they've declared a set of rights doesn't actually grant them, and buying a book doesn't bind purchasers to never copy any fragments of it without getting written consent from the author.

Quote:

If you retained copies on your own PC, or under your account at the bookstore, you'd be breaking copyright law.

If you sell your house, it's not illegal to keep a copy of the key. It's illegal to *use* it after you've sold the house, but having potential access is not the same as violating the property rights of the new owners.

If bookstores won't remove access to the books, that doesn't make transfer of them illegal. Accessing them after the transfer is a violation of copyright law, but having them available for access is no more a violation than owning a photocopy machine.

OtterBooks · 03-13-2011, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

If bookstores won't remove access to the books, that doesn't make transfer of them illegal. Accessing them after the transfer is a violation of copyright law, but having them available for access is no more a violation than owning a photocopy machine.

I was under the impression that copyright law limited the act of copying.

HarryT · 03-13-2011, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

If bookstores won't remove access to the books, that doesn't make transfer of them illegal. Accessing them after the transfer is a violation of copyright law, but having them available for access is no more a violation than owning a photocopy machine.

No, it's the ACT of making an unauthorised copy that violates copyright law; whether or not you read the book is irrelevant. By giving a copy of a book to a third party, without the permission of the copyright holder, you have created an unauthorised copy.

TheJohnNewton · 03-13-2011, 01:50 PM

With paper books you have a physical object that can't be separated from the IP so it must be dealt with. The object must be made, physically moved to the user, there is a limited number of them, they can wear out. With ebooks those problems go away. You want a copy, buy it and have it in seconds.

Why do people want to create some elaborate system to allow them to sell other people's work? Who would pay for it and why? If you want to donate to a library send them a check.

Elfwreck · 03-13-2011, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

No, it's the ACT of making an unauthorised copy that violates copyright law; whether or not you read the book is irrelevant. By giving a copy of a book to a third party, without the permission of the copyright holder, you have created an unauthorised copy.

If I download the books onto a flash drive after purchase, that's a legitimate, authorized copy. If I then sell the flash drive, I haven't made any unauthorized copies.

If I download *for the purpose* of selling, I may be making an unauthorized copy, but I often download for reading to several places--memory card on my reader, portable flash drive so I can comfortably move books on & off my reader, and hard drive in case the bookstore vanishes overnight.

Selling the physical medium where I've stored a legit copy doesn't create an unauthorized copy. If I don't open the other copies I have access to, I haven't violated any rules. Of course, that's on the honor system--but so's physical bookselling; they're also counting on me not photocopying the book & then selling the original. (With most bound books, a photocopy is much lower quality than the original. With fanzines and micro-press publications, it's often not.)

saoir · 03-13-2011, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

How can the publisher be sure that once the sale is made, that there is still not a copy left behind by the seller?

How can they be sure you didn't photocopy it or scan it ?

When I pay for something I expect ownership, end of story. If I want to sell my MSWord then I do so. If I want to sell my MP3s then I do so.

I bought several enjoyable eBooks, by one specific author, from Amazon last year for a reasonable price. I didn't like the first two titles.
So I sold them to my old school friend who has an eReader he won in a local competition. I erased them because a) I have no interest in them and b) because that is what I do when I sell something.

The Terminator · 03-13-2011, 05:12 PM

Hell yes, you can do it with a P-book

Darqref · 03-14-2011, 01:24 AM

Yes we should be able to sell them. I don't know about any specific method of doing it proposed here, but it *should* be legal.

I'm interested in this for a different reason than expressed so far: If one can re-sell an ebook according to the first sale definition, then one can also sell that ebook to a geolocation for which it was originally not available. Someone could make a business of buying a legal copy of an ebook, then re-selling it to someone in a georestricted country. This would probably need to be some kind of drm-ridden transaction (for a database definition of "transaction") to make sure copies are not left hanging around, but I imagine it might be accomplished by using a secondary encryption wrapper (kinda like putting an encrypted mobi file inside an encrypted zip file)

The practice of this kind of business would be to never decode the original file, but put it in another wrapper for the new customer, who would need to decode twice before reading. It would be a pain, but less than the pain of never being allowed to buy the book in the first place, and hopefully the pain might be enough to avoid being sued.

spaze · 03-14-2011, 02:02 AM

Nevermind...

spaze · 03-14-2011, 02:16 AM

People here are saying how one can make a photocopy of paper book and sell the original.

Well, the problem here is that by making so, one breaks copyright laws.

One of the reasons, among many, that selling a digital media is not legal because it's just too damn easy to make a copy of an ebook, even your grandma can do it.

My best advice: If you're so naive then go ahead and resell your ebook. Chances are no one will have resources to go after you, but it still doesn't make it any more legal.

LeoMartin · 03-14-2011, 02:27 PM

I think it's a tough call. It really depends on the details of how it occurs. If I were to gain access to the .doc file of The Da Vinci code, do I have the right to give it away? No, so why would giving it away via selling be any different*?

*Assuming that I keep a copy. If I don't keep a copy, then it's more like the case where you own a copy of the book and want to resell it

View Poll Results: Should We Be Able To Resell Our Ebooks? (First Sale Rights)
Yes	93	73.23%
No	34	26.77%
Voters: 127. You may not vote on this poll

03-13-2011, 11:12 AM	#17
Janette55 Connoisseur Posts: 88 Karma: 2056 Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Ohio Device: Sony 900	I remember reading somewhere on a forum, not sure which one of a individual who bought a reader expecting to have all the books on it and they couldn't get to them. They didn't say what type. They weren't asking for help, it was just a remarked in another discusion. Anyhow, if I were to decide to sell my Sony 900 (I shudder at the thought) wouldn't all the books I have on it still be there for the person who would buy it? The only way I could see a person wanting to sell a reader is because they bought a new one. If that would happen, then what happens to the books that have been installed on it? A Kindle I can see as they have some form of password to activate it, and if you are connected to the Sony Library it could create a problem otherwise, I don't see how selling a reader can affect the books on it. I do feel that in some ways the books on a reader is different from paperback beside the obvious of electronic device versus paper. When I finish a DTB I can sell it to a used book store, give it away or burn it,it is my choice. But an ebook, doesn't the ability to transfer a copy open up the door for an individual to pirate copies? I know that is a problem now, the DRM is being stripped and copies are being sold. There is no black and white in this area. As for selling the ebooks (not the reader) I am of both minds, I can see the good and bad of both sides. If you are asking if sell the reader with the boooks then I go it should be allowed. Last edited by Janette55; 03-13-2011 at 11:16 AM. Reason: response of poll

03-14-2011, 02:02 AM	#28
spaze Addict Posts: 265 Karma: 512072 Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Helsinki, Finland Device: Writing my first short story: Guardian Angel	Nevermind... Last edited by spaze; 03-14-2011 at 02:17 AM.

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03-13-2011, 11:19 AM	#19
JSWolf Resident Curmudgeon Posts: 73,938 Karma: 128903250 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Roslindale, Massachusetts Device: Kobo Libra 2, Kobo Aura H2O, PRS-650, PRS-T1, nook STR, PW3	How can the publisher be sure that once the sale is made, that there is still not a copy left behind by the seller? Personally, I am in favor of being able to sell eBooks. But I do understand how that question is an important one that really does need to be answered.

03-13-2011, 01:50 PM	#23
TheJohnNewton Addict Posts: 256 Karma: 144599 Join Date: Jan 2008 Device: Boox Nova 2	With paper books you have a physical object that can't be separated from the IP so it must be dealt with. The object must be made, physically moved to the user, there is a limited number of them, they can wear out. With ebooks those problems go away. You want a copy, buy it and have it in seconds. Why do people want to create some elaborate system to allow them to sell other people's work? Who would pay for it and why? If you want to donate to a library send them a check.

03-13-2011, 05:12 PM	#26
The Terminator Retired Posts: 2,552 Karma: 37638420 Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Vancouver Island Canada Device: Kobo Touch, Optimus One (2.3), Nexus 7 (4.2)	Hell yes, you can do it with a P-book

03-14-2011, 01:24 AM	#27
Darqref space cadet Posts: 330 Karma: 2963633 Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Seattle area Device: Rocket PRO, gen3, Pocketbook360	Yes we should be able to sell them. I don't know about any specific method of doing it proposed here, but it should be legal. I'm interested in this for a different reason than expressed so far: If one can re-sell an ebook according to the first sale definition, then one can also sell that ebook to a geolocation for which it was originally not available. Someone could make a business of buying a legal copy of an ebook, then re-selling it to someone in a georestricted country. This would probably need to be some kind of drm-ridden transaction (for a database definition of "transaction") to make sure copies are not left hanging around, but I imagine it might be accomplished by using a secondary encryption wrapper (kinda like putting an encrypted mobi file inside an encrypted zip file) The practice of this kind of business would be to never decode the original file, but put it in another wrapper for the new customer, who would need to decode twice before reading. It would be a pain, but less than the pain of never being allowed to buy the book in the first place, and hopefully the pain might be enough to avoid being sued.

03-14-2011, 02:16 AM	#29
spaze Addict Posts: 265 Karma: 512072 Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Helsinki, Finland Device: Writing my first short story: Guardian Angel	People here are saying how one can make a photocopy of paper book and sell the original. Well, the problem here is that by making so, one breaks copyright laws. One of the reasons, among many, that selling a digital media is not legal because it's just too damn easy to make a copy of an ebook, even your grandma can do it. My best advice: If you're so naive then go ahead and resell your ebook. Chances are no one will have resources to go after you, but it still doesn't make it any more legal.

03-14-2011, 02:27 PM	#30
LeoMartin Junior Member Posts: 5 Karma: 10 Join Date: Mar 2011 Device: Kindle	I think it's a tough call. It really depends on the details of how it occurs. If I were to gain access to the .doc file of The Da Vinci code, do I have the right to give it away? No, so why would giving it away via selling be any different? Assuming that I keep a copy. If I don't keep a copy, then it's more like the case where you own a copy of the book and want to resell it

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