"Consumers Don't Mind...Ads." Really?

[anamardoll]

Originally Posted by stonetools

OK. Stand corrected. I did overstate Elfwreck's position-although she did talk about the impossibility of tailoring ads to different platforms .

Thank you for being willing to be corrected.

Originally Posted by stonetools

Since you didn't comment on the rest of my post, I assume you are in agreement

I thought you were going to go a whole post without snark, but it seems you couldn't quite make it.

You assume incorrectly. When your first paragraph is as blatantly wrong as it was, why would I read any further? I don't know what the rest of your post was because I stopped reading after you started strawmanning your opponent.

[stonetools]

Originally Posted by anamardoll

Thank you for being willing to be corrected.



I thought you were going to go a whole post without snark, but it seems you couldn't quite make it.

You assume incorrectly. When your first paragraph is as blatantly wrong as it was, why would I read any further? I don't know what the rest of your post was because I stopped reading after you started strawmanning your opponent.

Lighten up, Frances, it was a joke.

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by stonetools

Lighten up, Frances, it was a joke.

Poe's law= stonetools law?

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by stonetools

The KESO will be offered at a discount. ... Let's say $5. For some KESOs, you would get the ebook free. Even if you pay a price, the value of the Special Offers is such that the ebook pays for itself over time or even makes you a profit.
Writers can opt whether they want to offer a KESO or not along side the KE. If they choose to offer a KESO of their work, they get a cut from the advertisers. I expect that independent writers will swarm over this opportunity, with bestselling authors joining later. Later on there are Nook Book Special Offers and Kobobooks Special Offers as the model spreads.
How's that for a vision of the future?

Potentially reasonable in the abstract; it's when one tries to imagine the details that it falls apart.

Who are these advertisers? Not the exact list, but... name 10 advertisers who would probably pay $1 per sale to have a splash page at the front of an ebook.

To make it simpler, narrow it down. Assume the book is a Stephen King novel, a horror-esque thing about factories being haunted by the ghosts of people who died at work. Retail ebook is $14.99, no discounts; it's sold at all the major ebook stores.

Which advertisers are interested in paying for space on the KESO? Five of them at $1 each to bring the price down to $10, or 10 of them to bring the price down to $5? How will they react to comments left in the reviews section that say "download [drm-cracking software] to remove the ads?"

Will the KESO books be available on the kindle-for-PC-etc programs, or will you need the KESO-KINDLE only for them? How will the ads work on those other devices--will your computer need to be online to open the ebook?

"A cut" from advertisers? Why take less than the full price that the book is being reduced? They *know* that ads are a nuisance and will turn off some customers; if the book is $5 less, why would they accept less than $5 for it?

Many indie authors might go for less -- but we've seen *no* signs that mainstream publishers will accept any reduction of their profits. (We've seen no signs that they'll allow <$10 ebooks, even if they get full profit. They've specifically said they don't want the public to expect ebooks to cost $10 or less.)

As an abstract economic model it makes sense. When trying to apply it to the real world--the place where we actually buy ebooks--it doesn't; it doesn't fit the business world's methods. There's no indication that advertisers are willing to pay dollars per book to get their content included, and no indication that many publishers will be willing to accept the model at all.

"They'll see the little guys be successful at it and then they'll join" is false; they haven't done so with non-DRM'd ebooks.

[anamardoll]

I'm also wondering what a splash page ad would look like if you have no color and no animation.

We've all seen sites with Google Text Ads, they're blank mental space to me. My mind doesn't even register the words (at least not consciously). The "money marker" ads aren't the ads that make you click and buy (who does that these days??), they're the ads that register a brand in your mind.

For example, I saw "Shana Logic" ads on various sites for YEARS before I eventually visited their site and bought an item. It wasn't that last ad that got me, it was the brand building that the pictures accumulated in my mind over time. You CAN get pictures on eInk, of course, but without color they lose a lot of punch.

---

Then too, I'm thinking about the implementation. I don't know how the Kindle works exactly, but my Moon+ reader app...... when I open a book for the first time, it brings up an in-app TOC where I have to decide where to start reading. Do I want to start at the preface or at Chapter 1? That sort of thing.

What's going to stop people from pulling up the TOC on their Kindle and popping right over the ads entirely? Are you going to have to sit through a 30 second ad screen every time you open an (ad-supported) book? It seems like that's the only way to implement it.

What about people who only open and read the book once? That doesn't seem like enough ad space for a whole $1 per eyeballs. It would be more feasible, I think, if the unskippable ad-splash replayed every 30 minutes of reading or something, like a commercial. Or between chapters. But it would HAVE to be unskippable, or people would click right past it.

I just don't see people being willing to put up with that in books. TV commercials are acceptable because - hey, bathroom break. Reading commercials? I just don't see it.

But that's me.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by anamardoll

I just don't see people being willing to put up with that in books. TV commercials are acceptable because - hey, bathroom break. Reading commercials? I just don't see it.

TV commercials are acceptable because they're *entertaining.* Ditto magazine ads; they're made to be visually appealing and intriguing. TV ads are designed to be informative and attention-grabbing--and (and here's a *big* aspect we've been skipping over)--they're aimed at a target demographic. Cartoons at 3pm get very different ads from the same cartoons at 11pm.

Nobody's sorted out how to aim ads at book readers. (Much less ebook readers.) Everyone knows romances are popular; they don't know what else romance readers buy. (Well. Amazon has some good guesses... but they're likely to run into consumer privacy laws if they aren't careful. And a shift in state laws in a few places could make them unable to target ads to individual readers.) And even Amazon has some problems--their "put other family members on your Kindle account" approach means up to 6 people's reading preferences are going through one name.

Text-based ads at the chapter breaks, based on chapter keywords, on a wifi-enabled device, might work, like google text ads. And be about as effective, which means advertisers might be willing to pay $.10 per clickthrough... which means maybe $.10 per book. Useless for subsidizing costs.

Visually appealing ads need to be tailored to the device. It's possible to make stunning black-and-white ads--but they won't compete with color ads on color devices. And the ads that will look great on a 6" screen will be unreadable on an iphone.

[stonetools]

Well, this is going to be a quick post, because I'm going out to dinner, but here's one way to do it.
Every time you open your KESO, you get a prompt window with two options:
View Special Offers or Continue Reading.
You click on the first and its a link to your Special Offers Home Page at Amazon. On that page are all the Special Offers from the advertisers. Who are the advertisers?

What types of ads will users see while reading on an ad-supported Kindle? Ads for cars from Buick, ads for Olay products from Proctor & Gamble, and ads for Visa, among others. These companies are sponsoring the first series of screensavers designed for Kindle's electronic ink display.

Kindle with Special Offers 3G will also offer Amazon deals like $6 for six Audible Books (normally $68), $1 for an album in the Amazon MP3 Store, $10 for $30 worth of products in the Amazon Denim Shop or Amazon Swim Shop, a free $100 Amazon gift card when you get an Amazon Rewards Visa card, and 50 percent off a Roku streaming player.

LINK

In other words, the Special Offers will be a lot of deals offered by Amazon, plus a whole bunch of companies invited by Amazon to participate. I foresee a LOT more than five advertisers wanting to get in, since its an extension of an already very successful program.

I don't foresee a problem with ad-stripping programs, since the people who opt for these KESOs will WANT to see these special offers. Looking at Tube Monkey's posts , its clear he is delighted with his KSO and his special offers. Like it or not , KSOs are a runaway hit.
I don't see why KESOs can't work for Kindle Apps as well as Kindles either.

OK, off to dinner. That's enough for you guys to chew on for a while.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by stonetools

Well, this is going to be a quick post, because I'm going out to dinner, but here's one way to do it.
Every time you open your KSOE, you get a prompt window with two options:
View Special Offers or Continue Reading.

That's ads on the device, not on individual ebooks. The Kindle already has one of those; you're proposing a shift in how the ads are delivered, not a change in where the advertising resides.

This suggestion doesn't have ads in the ebooks; it has ads on the ebook reader. Are you saying that any ebooks purchased from Amazon with this reader will have a 20% discount (for example) because of the ads? And the advertisers will pay the difference to the publishers?

Ads on *devices,* which subsidize the cost of the device, are very possible. Ads in the ebooks, which lower the price of the individual book, are not feasible right now, and aren't likely to be, because we're not moving toward a single-filetype, single-device system.

[stonetools]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

That's ads on the device, not on individual ebooks. The Kindle already has one of those; you're proposing a shift in how the ads are delivered, not a change in where the advertising resides.

This suggestion doesn't have ads in the ebooks; it has ads on the ebook reader. Are you saying that any ebooks purchased from Amazon with this reader will have a 20% discount (for example) because of the ads? And the advertisers will pay the difference to the publishers?

Ads on *devices,* which subsidize the cost of the device, are very possible. Ads in the ebooks, which lower the price of the individual book, are not feasible right now, and aren't likely to be, because we're not moving toward a single-filetype, single-device system.

Nope, you are missing it. The ads aren't actually in the ebook, true : the LINK to the special offers is in the book. You buy the ebook so you can ACCESS the special offers. The ads are on a Special Offers Web page that's only accessible via a link from a KESO.
Now all this is very doable, with off-shelf technology, and its not very intrusive. If you don't want to look at your Special Offers that day, you just click on the "Continue Reading" link and you're reading seconds later.

[anamardoll]

Doing some math...

A Kindle device with ads is $25 off the prince for the life of the device. If the user reads their Kindle once a day for a year, that's 365 ad views (assuming they pick up their Kindle to read and see the ad screensaver).

That's 7 cents for the cost of an ad view. ($25 / 365 ad-views) Most advertisers will pay about 7 cents for a pair of eyeballs - that's reasonable.

But we were talking about ads in ebooks, not in devices. A typical ebook takes the average reader a week to read and they don't re-read the book more than once per year, so we're talking 7 views total (1 view per day for a week, assuming an "open-the-book, see-an-ad" interface).

If we stick with the same 1 ad-view = 7 cents model, then the customer savings for buying the ad-supported version will be 49 cents.

Now, it's possible that there will be a small following of subscribers who will buy the $9.50 ebook (as opposed to the $10 ebook) because they WANT the ads. If the ads are as good as Amazon's ads ($20 Amazon bucks for $10 cash), then that could definitely happen. But MOST advertisers aren't doing that kind of "loss" brand building with their ads.

Anyway, I'm unclear because the convo keeps shifting between ads in ebooks and ads in devices. Both have a completely different set of issues, imho.

[stonetools]

But we were talking about ads in ebooks, not in devices. A typical ebook takes the average reader a week to read and they don't re-read the book more than once per year, so we're talking 7 views total (1 view per day for a week, assuming an "open-the-book, see-an-ad" interface).

But we're not assuming an "open-the -book, see-an-ad" interface, we are assuming a "open-book, see- lots-of-ads-on a web-page" interface. That's at least as good as say, a magazine, which can be read in one sitting, or a 30 minute TV show.
Hey, we can sling around numbers too. If the reader sees 10 ads per opening the book and they open the book 7 times, that's (7*10)*7=490 or close to $5.
That doesn't even include the fact that the buyer might want to keep accessing the SO page even after he finishes reading the book.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by stonetools

But we're not assuming an "open-the -book, see-an-ad" interface, we are assuming a "open-book, see- lots-of-ads-on a web-page" interface.

Maybe you were; I don't read my ebooks on anything that can access a web page. Any ads in the book would have to be established at time of sale, and wouldn't have clickable links. And I'm hardly rare in that.

Limiting ad-based ebooks to web-enabled readers means cutting down advertiser's ability to reach potential customers. Smaller audience = less willingness to pay to reach them.

So: you are proposing that Amazon will update the Kindle software to detect books that have ads, so that when those books are opened, there'll first be a splash page with an advert? (Is this *only* on the Kindle, or does it include people reading on the Kindle app on their iPhones? Do they see the same ad?) Would these ads only be for Amazon ebooks, or would they be in other ebook stores?

Hey, we can sling around numbers too. If the reader sees 10 ads per opening the book and they open the book 7 times, that's (7*10)*7=490 or close to $5.

If the reader has to wade through 10 ads every time he opens the book, ad-stripping software will be as common as Adblock Plus--or people just won't buy the ad-infected versions. Unless, of course, they're all on one page... but 10 ads on a Kindle screen are awfully cramped, and it's worse on an iPhone screen.

People will tolerate a small bit of nuisance for a lower price. If the nuisance is too high, they'll seek workarounds, or just not bother with the item. If it takes 5 clicks to get past the ads on every book opening, or every chapter break, most people won't buy a second ad-subsidized book. A lot of them, not understanding the whole ebook thing, won't buy a second ebook at all. It usually only takes one bad experience as one's first foray into new tech to give up on the tech entirely.

That doesn't even include the fact that the buyer might want to keep accessing the SO page even after he finishes reading the book.

Some fraction of users will love the ads. There are people who love google text ads. If they were in the majority, Adblock Plus would never have been developed.

[stonetools]

Maybe you were; I don't read my ebooks on anything that can access a web page. Any ads in the book would have to be established at time of sale, and wouldn't have clickable links. And I'm hardly rare in that.

Limiting ad-based ebooks to web-enabled readers means cutting down advertiser's ability to reach potential customers. Smaller audience = less willingness to pay to reach them.

Well that's you: most folks these days read their ebooks on an at least wifi enabled device. The original KSO was wifi only and was a big success.

So: you are proposing that Amazon will update the Kindle software to detect books that have ads, so that when those books are opened, there'll first be a splash page with an advert? (Is this *only* on the Kindle, or does it include people reading on the Kindle app on their iPhones? Do they see the same ad?) Would these ads only be for Amazon ebooks, or would they be in other ebook stores?

It would start with Amazon, building on the success of the KSO but other stores could adopt it. Don't see why there couldn't be NBSOs and KBSOs. It would also work for Kindle App users.

f the reader has to wade through 10 ads every time he opens the book, ad-stripping software will be as common as Adblock Plus--or people just won't buy the ad-infected versions. Unless, of course, they're all on one page... but 10 ads on a Kindle screen are awfully cramped, and it's worse on an iPhone screen.

People will tolerate a small bit of nuisance for a lower price. If the nuisance is too high, they'll seek workarounds, or just not bother with the item. If it takes 5 clicks to get past the ads on every book opening, or every chapter break, most people won't buy a second ad-subsidized book. A lot of them, not understanding the whole ebook thing, won't buy a second ebook at all. It usually only takes one bad experience as one's first foray into new tech to give up on the tech entirely.

Let's try this again. What you get when you open a KESO is a prompt window with two options: a link that takes you to a web page with your Special Offers and a " Continue Reading" option. There is no splash page with ads.
The prompt window opens in seconds and by clicking a link you can go instantly to your SO page or to your last visited page in your ebook.
Remember, if you buy a KESO, you WANT to see those special offers. The first time you buy a $20 Amazon gift card for $10 or you buy an Amazon product at a discount, you've made back the price of your ebook. Go back and re-read Tubemonkey's posts. Trust me, that is one happy customer. I guarantee you that ad-stripping hackery will not be a problem.
Now, is this idea a perfect solution? Nope, but it is certainly doable, with off-the shelf technology, and is an expansion on an already successful marketing idea. Amazon would roll this out with lots of promo ads explaining what the concept is and how cool those Special Offers are.
Of course, if you want to avoid ads altogether, just pay full price and buy a regular KE. You can tell your grand kids , " I was never taken in by those new-fangled ad-supported ebooks, by cracky. "
This is only one way; my guess is that there are other, better ways to put ads in ebooks that someone with better marketing and technical chops than I are already thinking of.
You can rest easy, btw. Amazon has said that it isn't thinking of putting ads in ebooks .... yet. Once it or someone else thinks of a non-obtrusive, consumer-friendly way to do it, it will happen.

[anamardoll]

If the reader has to wade through 10 ads every time he opens the book, ad-stripping software will be as common as Adblock Plus--or people just won't buy the ad-infected versions. Unless, of course, they're all on one page... but 10 ads on a Kindle screen are awfully cramped, and it's worse on an iPhone screen.

This.

I can't think of anything where I've seen 10 ads crammed together at once. Are they all going to be on the same page together? That's not much real-estate, and it practically guarantees that the reader won't read the ad.

The web ads that make money and build brands (in my opinion) are the largish ones on sidebars that have really lovely pictures. Not the crammed text ones. I don't see an advertiser paying for that - I don't think they'd get the return on their investment.

(Maybe 5 years ago when they'd pay ad money for ANYTHING, but they've gotten a lot wiser to what works and what's a waste, imho.)

[elcreative]

Well that's actually you and others with Wi-Fi on a reader... that's not everybody by a long way... for starters the whole world isn't the US so not everyone uses that button filled thingy so there are large numbers of people that actually like to read on a device that DOESN'T connect to the 'net at all... when I read, guess what, that's what I want to do... no ads, no distractions, nothing but my book... if I want anything else then I'll put my book down and do something else...

Also, when I buy a book, it is something I want so I am happy to pay for it, especially if it means I don't have to have yet more advertising c**p cluttering up my world... I can use the net to find anything I want, I don't need other people ramming their ideas, of what I want, down my throat... this is also called freedom and choice... Nobody I know wants reading polluted by advertising whether by the reader or book... your choice also...

Originally Posted by stonetools

Well that's you: most folks these days read their ebooks on an at least wifi enabled device. The original KSO was wifi only and was a big success.