The non-issue

[JimLL]

Originally Posted by PeterT

It sounds like you are working in book view. I thought a lot of the advice here was to work in code view mode..

So all Sigil users are expected to be html coders? So that's what the elitists are hot about. Leaves a lot of people out - which is apparently the point.

But if there's a better book view coming, who's to say you shouldn't use it for more than just a quick peek at the book? For all that, who defined the idea that only html coders should make ebooks...

[cybmole]

Originally Posted by JimLL

For all that, who defined the idea that only html coders should make ebooks...

er... probably the guys who based the epub spec on html...

PS to All : I know about "DON'T FEED THE TROLLS" but could not resist. could some one just ban this guy ... pretty please.....

[Toxaris]

Originally Posted by JimLL

So all Sigil users are expected to be html coders? So that's what the elitists are hot about. Leaves a lot of people out - which is apparently the point.

But if there's a better book view coming, who's to say you shouldn't use it for more than just a quick peek at the book? For all that, who defined the idea that only html coders should make ebooks...

You can only do limited things with bookview. That was and will be the case. It has nothing to do with 'elitists' (somebody got a Calimero complex here...). Somethings can only be done with writing directly HTML and CSS.
Even with WYSIWYG HTML Editors that is the same story.

Do I scream murder that Visual Studio/Delphi/whatever still requires me to code stuff instead of letting me everything do with drag-and-drop and the menu? No, because that is part of creating a program. The same goes with creating an ePUB.

You can't expect that you can swim by just getting in the water, just because others can swim already.

[mrmikel]

Originally Posted by Toxaris

You can't expect that you can swim by just getting in the water, just because others can swim already.

Just because someone has handed you a scalpel does not make you a surgeon.

[theducks]

Originally Posted by mrmikel

Just because someone has handed you a scalpel does not make you a surgeon.

Sure it does


But it doesn't make you a Good surgeon.

[Keroberos]

Originally Posted by JimLL

So all Sigil users are expected to be html coders? So that's what the elitists are hot about. Leaves a lot of people out - which is apparently the point.

And...there's the real problem, you want Sigil to be Microsoft Word for epubs, Sigil is not Microsoft Word for epubs, so it sucks. Maybe you would be better off using Writer2ePub or some other word processor plugin, or using Calibre to convert your html to epub (just don't expect stellar results).

If you would have posted with a little more civility (a lot?), you would have found that most of the people on this forum would have been quite happy to help you work through any problems you were having, and to guide you to the places that would help you learn the things you need to know to design epubs. And yes, You do need to learn things to design epubs with Sigil. The same is true of any software.

Originally Posted by JimLL

But if there's a better book view coming, who's to say you shouldn't use it for more than just a quick peek at the book?

No one, just don't expect it to have more than the most basic editing functions. We still have quite a few years before any epub editor can give us the fine-grained control over formating that we want, but be usable for people who don't want to learn html/css (just look at InDesign's horrid epub export for example).

Originally Posted by JimLL

For all that, who defined the idea that only html coders should make ebooks...

No, you've got that backwards, ebook designers need to know how to code html/css to make more than the most basic (ugly) ebooks. And really...you don't need to know more than the most basic html/css to get started, the more complex stuff can be learned later if you want (and a lot isn't currently supported in epub anyway).

Of course if you ever do get a finished epub out of Sigil, you'll find that the the way things are displayed Book View is not quite how they are displayed in most readers, this is the reason why most advanced users don't use Book View (not because we're "elitists"). So we get to look forward to hearing you complain about that.

[alansplace]

Gentlemem, googling WYSIWYG epub editor returns this!

sigil - A WYSIWYG ebook editor. - Google Project Hosting

as the first (or second) hit.

I believe that this implies to the vast majority that it's like a word-processor and the editing of an Epub can be done in [what sigil calls] book view, after all, what mainstream word-processor even has a code-view included? IMHO, this result in a google search is misleading to the vast majority and also what probably has mislead the OP.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by alansplace

Gentlemem, googling WYSIWYG epub editor returns this!

sigil - A WYSIWYG ebook editor. - Google Project Hosting

as the first (or second) hit.

I believe that this implies to the vast majority that it's like a word-processor and the editing of an Epub can be done in [what sigil calls] book view, after all, what mainstream word-processor even has a code-view included? IMHO, this result in a google search is misleading to the vast majority and also what probably has mislead the OP.

Yes, Harry:

But it ALSO says, once you get to the Sigil page:

Sigil is a multi-platform EPUB ebook editor with the following features

• Online Sigil User's Guide, FAQ, and Wiki documentation
  
• Free and open source software under GPLv3
• Multi-platform: runs on Windows, Linux and Mac
• Full UTF-8 support
• Full EPUB 2 spec support
• Multiple Views: Book View, Code View and Split View
• WYSIWYG editing in Book View, supporting all XHTML documents under the OPS specification
• Complete control over directly editing EPUB syntax in Code View
• Table of Contents generator with multi-level heading support
• Metadata editor with full support for all possible metadata entries (more than 200) with full descriptions for each
• User interface translated into 15 languages
• Spell checking with default and user configurable dictionaries
• Full Regular Expression (PCRE) support for Find & Replace
• SVG support and basic XPGT support
• Supports import of EPUB and HTML files, images, style sheets, and fonts
• Documents can be validated for EPUB compliance with the integrated FlightCrew EPUB validator
• Embedded HTML Tidy: all imported files have their formatting corrected, and your editing can be optionally cleaned
• Native C++ application

I mean, c'mon--what about that implies "no knowledge of html or css needed?"

Nobody says that JimLL mightn't have misunderstood the basic functionality of Sigil. What EVERYONE has been saying, for at least, hell, 20 posts now, is that a) you catch more flies with honey than vinegar, and b) you can't make an ePUB omelet without breaking a few html & css eggs. He's furious because he thinks we're all in some elitist conspiracy to keep out the (untrained) "riff-raff," but as Keroberos said, to paraphrase, is that SURE, you can make CRAPPY eBooks with Sigil totally in BookView--but to compensate for what this guy did NOT do in an html editor (e.g., correctly mark up his headings with header class tags, or regex/s&R out extraneous spaces), he wants Sigil to do that in BV. Everyone here, myself included, told him to use Jutoh, or, for that matter, try the PC Beta of Scrivener, which (at least on the Mac) puts out a very decent eBook. Or use Calibre. Or...

I mean, it's like everything else in life--don't know how to fix your own car? Pay someone else to do it, (or in this case, pay for a program like Jutoh that will). OR, get an auto-repair manual, read up, and learn how to do it. I mean, this discussion really has transcended into the Theater of the Absurd. Do I think that user_none ought to change the description of Sigil, to make it clear that it's NOT Jutoh? Yes, I do, if for no other reason than to avoid this type of brouhaha; but at the end of the day, making ePUBs takes what it takes, and only the simplest titles can be made into ePUB format (via Calibre, JUTOH, whatever) without any knowledge of html or css at ALL. And if he wants something that works "semi-magical," then he can save up his money until he can pay for Jutoh, which WILL work as he wishes it to.

Moreover, he's posted not less than four times as to how he's now cognitively-disabled, due to a stroke. He's advised us he CANNOT LEARN and CANNOT remember. Seriously--how will he ever learn to use Sigil? No amount of "dumbing down" will make this easy enough for someone to learn without having to remember at least SOME stuff. This is an excruciating exercise in futility. I understand why he's "mad." He's frustrated and angry. Fine--but there's no reason we should be wearing it OR bearing the brunt of it.

(And, do I know why on earth I'm still posting about this? No.)

Hitch

[Keroberos]

Originally Posted by Hitch

(And, do I know why on earth I'm still posting about this? No.)

Possibly the same reason as I do? With hope (although a dim hope at this point) that with judicious use of the clue-by-four, the OP will, in fact sprout a clue.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Hitch

I mean, c'mon--what about that implies "no knowledge of html or css needed?"

WYSIWYG editing in Book View, supporting all XHTML documents under the OPS specification

That implies no knowledge of HTML or CSS is needed.

[Hitch]

Wolfie:

It also says THIS:

Complete control over directly editing EPUB syntax in Code View

--and--

Full Regular Expression (PCRE) support for Find & Replace

--and--

Documents can be validated for EPUB compliance with the integrated FlightCrew EPUB validator.

Sorry, but just because something says "WYSIWYG" doesn't mean that the whole bloody THING works like magic. Taking a single word or acronym out of context doesn't support the idea that he should be able to use Sigil like WORD.

The BV editor IS "WYSIWYG." The OP can absolutely go through, and without ever looking at CV, make each of his chapter heads a header, in BV. But he doesn't WANT TO DO THAT. He wants to have access to the advanced features of using html--so he can regex (F&R/S&R) his incorrectly-coded headers so that he doesn't have to do it by hand. In the alternative, he doesn't want to PAY $40 to use Jutoh, which will do what he wants.

It ain't a perfect world. Like I said, learn or pay. Jutoh, Scrivener, AWP + a plug-in, OO + a plug-in, whatever--it's all going to either cost money or have a learning curve.

Hitch

[Keroberos]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

That implies no knowledge of HTML or CSS is needed.

Which is entirely correct for the small handful of things that you can do in Book View. Unfortunately that is only the tip of the iceberg of what you can do with epub (or the problems you can run into with crappy html).

This is the OP's issue--from his description of the problems he is having, it sounds like the underlying html he is working with has some issues (or is completely borked). Clicking buttons in Book View can't fix that. Saving the html or having an autosave can't fix that. Bitching on a forum about how Sigil sucks can't fix that (and is counterproductive). Splitting hairs over the definition of WYSIWYG can't fix that. Knowledge and understanding of what's going on with the underlying html/css is the only thing that can fix that.

This is the problem with WYSIWYG interfaces, garbage in, garbage out--with no way to fix it, or even see or understand what the problem is.

[DiapDealer]

Who ever suggested that just any ol' body should be able to make a quality ebook, anyway? That's always confused me.

I think that's where a lot of issues like this begin. As much as some may wish it were so... creating quality, functional ebooks is never going to be as easy as pouring piss out of a boot that has the instructions to do so printed on the heel.

[Keroberos]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I think that's where a lot of issues like this begin. As much as some may wish it were so... creating quality, functional ebooks is never going to be as easy as pouring piss out of a boot that has the instructions to do so printed on the heel.

The same can be said for everything. "It's so easy, a caveman could do it."...........until it breaks--then you better get someone that knows what the hell they're doing.

[DaleDe]

Originally Posted by Keroberos

This is the problem with WYSIWYG interfaces, garbage in, garbage out--with no way to fix it, or even see or understand what the problem is.

That is not true. I used Framemaker for years and never once had a problem with not being able to fix what I wrote or having to resort to code view to make something work. A similar statement can be made about WORD I believe although not originally. What Sigil has is not a WYSIWYG editor but a semblance of a WYSIWYG display with minor editing capability.

I find I almost always make edits in code view for that very reason. It is not a full WYSIWYG editor.

Dale